Richard Wolpert — Acrew Capital

Wednesday, May 25, 2022
Great discussion with Richard Wolpert on the convergence of tech and media. Some punchlines:
* Movie theaters will only be for tent-pole movies
* Live concerts are not going away
* The metaverse will happen
* Social media is toxic and needs to be fixed

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Richard Wolpert is a venture partner at Acrew Capital. He runs his own seed fund Chance Technologies. He spent the past decade plus as a venture partner at Accel and at AmplifyLA. He is a four time founder and host of the Tech vs Media podcast. Richard, thanks for coming on the show.

Thank you Minnie. And just so everybody knows Tech versus Media is just launching right around now. So be on the lookout for it.

Great. I will include a link. Well, we're going to talk a lot about tech versus media, but maybe start just with the basics of Acrew. So now I should be sending deals to you as part of a series A fund. Tell me what you're investing in.

Yeah, seed and series a a, so a crew, they're on their second round of funds right now. This year, they raised two funds. One was early stage fund that's about 390 million. One is a later stage fund, about 300 million. the firm was founded, , four or five years ago on diversity before it was quite the meme.

It is today, at the time of the founding of the firm, there was not a single white man. on the founding team, the founding team is Theresa Gow and Michelle LaurenAnd they'll write anything from a half million dollar C check to a $10 million, you know, a are part of a co lead on a series B round. And what about in terms of focus beyond the diversity focus, is there a focus on consumer enterprise?

Yeah. , so I've known Theresa gout since about 2005. When I first started to get to know Excel, and then I joined Excel as a venture partners.late 2006 to just earlier this year. So about 15 years and Excel, the two founders. came up with this thing when they founded the firm.

I think about 40 years ago called prepared minds. And the concept of prepared minds was if you're a good VC firm, one of your problems is too much deal flow.

So how do you focus? How do you sort of have what I call guard rails and say like, this is just something I won't even spend time on. And I think Theresa took that and sort of put a spin on it and they call them core thesis. for example, they focus on data interconnected right now. They focus on community activated. They focus on crypto, you know, NFT web three.

I believe there's four in total right now, they're all on the website, accrue capital.com. And the idea is not that every deal has to fit the thesis, but hope is 80% plus do.

And so you had known to Risa because you'd worked together at Excel.

Correct. uh, Theresa left in 2013 and I believe that next year started something called aspect ventures, which went through a couple of funds and they reimagined aspect ventures as a crew capital about, I think it was three years ago.

So the firm really got started by Theresa and Michelle and Lauren back in like 2014 under the name of aspect. I. have nothing but good things to say about Excel. Uh, I feel like I'm part of the Excel family.

I mean, there were literally many, maybe six or seven partners total when I joined and I felt very involved and I felt like I had a lot of say But after 15 years it was like, they got so big. And they just weren't focused that much on LA And they were like, you know, we love you Richard, but were so busy with our deal flow.

We're just not going to focus on LA right now. And that's when I started talking to people and I talked to some of the big obvious firms up valley, but I reached out to Teresa and that was just such a natural fit because I'd worked with her for six years. We did Vox media together, which is a deal I brought to Excel.

We did look out mobile together, which is a deal I brought to Excel. We did congregate together, which is deal. I brought to Excel all with Teresa.

she's someone I'd like to know better. What is she like?

She is one of the smartest and also thoughtful people in venture capital that I've ever met. I mean, if you look at her track record at Excel with truly, uh, an HotelTonight and others, I believe she's always in the top 100 VC list somewhere.

So Excel did this very clever thing, which was, They realize as the partners got old and they said, this is my perception. They never said it. Like once the partner's getting like mid, late forties who kind of getting old might be losing touch with what's hot and new, they would bring in a new wave of junior partner.

That were 30, that had more of their finger on the pulse of what's going on. And the best of those rose to be the next leadership of the firm. And Theresa is doing the exact same thing at a crew. I mean, we're on a call the other day discussing a deal. And she spent half an hour explaining to the associate why we structured the deal the way we did. And Theresa probably works 12 plus hours a day. On average, even though she probably wouldn't want me to say that Okay. Super interesting, but I sidetracked us. So, let me bring it back to you. Uh, you are primarily a founder, but you've also had these big operating roles. Do you want to paint the picture a little bitYeah , as you said, I've done four startups. I did have what I call quote, big operating roles a couple of times. So one was at Disney. So I was recruited by Michael Ovitz when he was first hired at Disney to be the precedent, to essentially be on the founding team of Disney online and create what Disney should do on the internet. just to give the listeners perspective, many,

this was late 1995 disney.com didn't even exist. We built the Disney channel online.

We built a theme park, ticket sales and hotel reservations. And you know, it went from me joining as a group of five first as an EDP. And then a year more as president to 250 people running every division of Disney's internet business. and it just, it was a lot of fun.

It was very creative. You know, when I first got the job, that was just after selling. After our sophomore, my first company So I, after hours was done on a shoestring, we never raised venture capital. We bootstrapped the.

whole thing with consulting revenue the next day.

I have somebody come to my office at Disney and they're like, I'm your interior designer? And I was like for what? And they said for your office. And I said, for what? And she's like, well, you have a $15,000 budget. How would you like me to decorate your office? And then I thought, this is kind of silly.

 but Disney was great. And then after I sold my company to real networks, audio mail, I'd known Rob Glaser, the founder of rural networks since I was at Disney. But uh, he said, look, I'll buy your company. That's a year old, but I'm really kind of buying you.

See, you have to sign up to be chief strategy officer of real networks for at least three years So I did that for four or five years. And they already had real player, But we built into it. well We started the music business music net, and then we ended up buying Rhapsody in 2003, which was a deal I led, And that was because I knew the future of music was streaming, but, I was too early.

I mean, it went from zero to 200 million in about four years between the music and the real player plus, and super past and other things that we did. And it was a great run, but it was hard on me and my family. I was commuting roughly three days a week for about five years. Uh, So I left there in 2006 And those were my two big operating roles

So I would love to use your experience at real. to compare music streaming with what we're seeing now with movie and video streamingYeah. I mean, I could talk about this for 17 hours,

right. So,

let's do 17 minutes.

okay. I won't even do 17 minutes.

but. For me back in 2003, when we saw rap city, which was the first streaming music service that had real content from all five major music labels, I thought this is the future for sure. Right.

But in 2003 and four, that was an almost impossible sell to consume.

For reasons that might sound silly today, but I would go to people many and say, you can subscribe drop city for 9 99 a month. and you'll get all this stuff on any device and and people were like, but do I own the music? And I'm like, what do you mean? And they're like, well, when I buy a CD, I own the music and I gave them an example.

I owned it when I bought the album, I owned it. When I bought the cassette, I owned it when I bought the CD, what does ownership mean? Ownership should mean access to it whenever you want. And that's what this provides. And I would explain that and people say, but do I own it? It just didn't get it. And you know, I have a saying many if you're right, but you're too early.

 And with streaming, I was right, but it was way too early.

So.

I was wrong. it wasn't until around 2010 and 11, when Daniella came out with Spotify where people didn't have that ownership question anymore, And I use what I learned in music as a lesson for video. in my perspective, many of what's happened the last couple of years is in 2018, 19. Everybody was excited about cord cutting. And the reason they were excited is because their cable bill had gotten up to like $150 a month and they barely watched any of it. And they seemed expensive and everybody hated their cable company, no matter who it was, you hated your cable company, right?

 And the, promise of this cord cutting was you would get only what you want and you'd probably pay half as much. And that promises turned into why I think is a big mess, because what happened during COVID is like Disney plus was supposed to get to a hundred million subscribers in five years. That was the plan before COVID and they launched just as COVID was happening.

And they got to a hundred million subscribers that.

But now my wife comes to me maybe nine months ago and says, do you know, we're paying for Hulu plus Disney plus apple TV plus Netflix, and we still had a basic direct TV package, which I canceled. I now have YouTube TV we're still spending 150 bucks a month And now we have this disjointed mess, At least when I had . I had a single guide, right. Now I've got my Netflix experience and I've got my Hulu experience and I have my apple TV plus experience.

And each of those is individually trying to figure out what you like, but none of them know what you like on any of the other services, because nothing's cohesive and joint and people don't even know the shows that they love. They don't even know what service they were on So I feel like we're in this big confusing mess right now. And I think that's an opportunity and there's a company I'm the executive chairman I'll call scenar.

And it has started as a social viewing platform. but the real vision for senior is there needs to be a unified guide across all the streaming services that knows what you like everywhere.

And then has a dashboard recommendation of because of the five services you have. Here's what you should watch tonight or here's what your friends are watching tonight. And I think there's plenty of room for others to be successful in that as well. But if you look at anything, ultimately there's a couple of winners and we've seen that in music, right? The two winners are Spotify and apple music. There are winners in streaming service for music they're winners in the podcast business. they're the big winners.

would be mad at me for saying that because Amazon music is doing okay. My friends worked there, but those are the two big, big winners. And I think you'll see the same in streaming.

Hm.

don't think people will want seven subscriptions.

I think they're going to want two or three at most. And it will be very interesting to see how that plays out over the next year.

And will that change? , both the type of content, as well as who is making that content, like, will you still have the major people making the content? Will you have a lot of UGC?

don't think it will change the content. We have more content than ever. We have more high quality content than ever with the money that Hulu is spending that Netflix is spending that Disney is spending that peacock is spending. I'm not subscribed to peacock. I apologize that because people for that, I just, I just won't do one more.

 though, They're coming out with some good stuff they're trying hard, but I don't think it will change the content because the content is good.

I think it will change the way we find the content and the way we play the content and the way we do it on our mobile device is hundred percent disjointed from the way we do it on our television, but it shouldn't be, if I'm a fan of a show, I should be able to watch it on my phone pad, 75 inch screen.

It should know where I was. It should know where I left off. I mean, this gets into the whole tech versus media thing, right? This is technology transforming the streaming video space over the next year or two. And do you think in the tech versus media, which I believe is the name of your podcast,

it is. It's actually just to make it provocative. It has a subtitle. So it's tech versus media and the subtitle is convergence or clash

 And so when the thing we're talking about right now, you're having a, better consumer experience, is there a convergence or is there a class.

Yeah, I don't want to sort of give an answer to my entire podcast premise in 30 seconds of people never, ever listen. But if you look at the top five market cap companies in the world right now, they are tech companies, they are not media companies. So there's a little bit of a sort of answer in that, right.

I do believe that media companies can be huge. I do believe that, you know, Facebook because of their problems is trying to become a metaverse media company in a way with Oculus and everything they're doing. What I've seen is they clash first and then they.

Hm.

I mean, if you go back to the lessons of music that we talked about early on, it was such a massive clash.

The music labels did not want streaming. They want it to hold on to the CD sales that they loved. They made a lot of money on those, but it was going to die and it took those executives. Maybe five to 8, 9, 10 years to just finally give up and say, all right, I get it.

Streaming's gonna win because it changed the business so dramatically and it changed the cost structure that could be afforded inside the music labels. And you basically, if you were a progressive person at a music label in 2007, you realize that 50% of the jobs at your company were going to go away.

And.

that's a hard thing for any company or industry to realize and accept, but that's What happened. And there was a lot of clashing before they gave the rights, all the rights to all the music, to the streaming services, whether it was Rhapsody, or obviously Spotify, or apple music

And I think we're going to see that now in video I think the studios didn't want to give up, you know, movie theaters. that's been a business for them. For what, 70 years, a great business. They don't just make money on the movie. They get a share of the popcorn. That's $7 and everything else too.

 When Jason Kylar at HBO, max said we're going to do day and date streaming and theaters

again? Say it again.

day and date,

So something, learned a lot at Disney. So Disney was huge on day and date.

because it wasn't just for them, the movie, it was like, I remember Hercules movie came out when I was at Disney and they plan for the day, the movie coming. Disney channel has some cartoon stuff about Hercules. The Disney stores have Hercules merchandise. The Disney theme parks have Hercules promotions. So day and date was a big deal at Disney. Like every massive movie had every division focused around

pushing that movie in their own way. So what HBO max did, which was the first during COVID and I forget which movie it was, but it's going to come out in the theaters, but it's also going to be available to subscribers on HBO, max for free.

The idea of you would be able to buy a movie day and date and watch it at home That was probably five to 10 years off in 2019, but it happened in late 2020 because of COVID

Yeah,

it seems like what we want as consumers,

I think it's a mix. And, and in my podcast, I discussed this topic with Paul Yan over who's the president of Fandango. So obviously they have a lot at stake with this because their business is all about movie theaters and ticket sales and other things. And I talked about it with mark Geiger related to

music and music streaming.

Do you have to go to a concert? I can get everything live. And what I've been convinced in some of these interviews, many is live and social will still exist, but it will be more than tent pole events, right? So when a big movie release comes out, I think there's a new matrix movie coming out like I would want to see the new matrix film on an IMAX screen. but I'm concerned for the 14 plexes and the 12 plexes. Like I don't see how they survive because I think people will go for the big releases, but what are they going to put in the other eight theaters? So I see the movie theater business changing dramatically, where it's really focused just on tent-pole movies and they become more of the high-end theaters with the recliners and things like that.

So they have something to offer. Do you have other interesting thoughts on how the business model changes like with music, right? Are now making more on tours, right? Are there other things in video that change as you know, movie theaters go away Well, I think the money shifts, right? If you look at what happened to the music industry, the money started to dip in the 2000 3, 4, 5 timeframe as Napster was out illegally and then Casa and other things, and they went into the desert for five or seven years. And then with Spotify and apple music, 2012, 13, 14, 15, 16, the revenue came back,

don't think the revenue going away for. studios for Disney for, you know, HBO, Warner, media, all of those. I just think it's shifting

And there was actually a lawsuit. I'm pretty sure it was Scarlett Johannson sued Disney, because they were selling it online. And she had a certain package where she was going to get a percent of box office.

And she wasn't sure she was going to get her percent of the streaming service of Disney plus. And she sued them. And, um, , they lashed out back and said something really rude. Like how dare she do this during COVID and force people to go somewhere. That's not healthy when we're giving people a healthy option. And of course they settled two months later because it's big rich, fancy people suing each other. Right. I don't feel bad for either of them, , but it shows what's happening in the space. Like even the actor was concerned, wait my movies on a streaming service, what does that mean for me? What does

that mean for the 1% I get of gross above a certain number. So it's affecting the actors. It's affecting the directors and producers it's affecting the studios, but the money's not going away.

Right that money's just shifting from theaters to stream live streaming at home.

And what about YouTube and all the other video formats that we're spending all of our time consuming. So lot of interesting things to talk about there are many, so I believe it will be true. Google started announcing you revenue numbers for the first time this year.

And I don't remember off the top of my head, what they announced in Q2, but they said by Q4 of this year, YouTube will generate more revenue than Netflix. And Netflix has the billions and billions and billion dollars of production. YouTube does not.

Right.

And I remember when Google bought YouTube, it was only about or 16 months old.

And they paid 1.6 billion for YouTube.

is back in maybe 2007, I think, around men. And I was like, oh, they're crazy. 1.6 billion for this little startup streaming thing.

I think it's one of the most brilliant acquisitions ever. It's kind of like Facebook acquiring Instagram for a billion.

And I've heard that more than half of Facebook's revenue now is coming from Instagram.

Wow.you know, I was an investor in a company called Jukin media and they basically had a YouTube network of different channels. Their biggest one's called fail army that I think had about 35 million subscribers.

I interviewed John Scott Moe for my podcast. They sold this year to trusted brand media, which is a private equity role at play for over a hundred million dollars is all I'm allowed to say. But they created basically a network of the future. That's not Netflix, that's not Hulu. It's not Disney plus, but it's not aimed at people my age But my daughter who's 23. I mean, she's the epitome of what's happening. She never

had, or will have a cable subscription. All she cares about is YouTube, Instagram, tick talk, and a few others.

That's it. That's all she watches. And that's where people 30 and under are focused today. And it's mostly mobile So I'm maybe going too broad from the question you asked, but yes, YouTube has changed the way at least, you know, gen Z millennials, that entire group are consuming video and watching video and paying for video or not.

And that is something that all of the studios are probably scared shitless about. Is this generation that's 30 and under never going to subscribe to Netflix or they never going to subscribe to Disney plus,

And I think you told me that we aren't focused on influencers anymore, but we're all about the creator economy.

Oh man. It's like every couple of years, there's a new, you've seen this many year in venture, a new buzzword

at every pitch deck has it.

Right? like VR was super hot, like four years.

Hmm.

And every pitch was, had a virtual reality angle. And then two years ago it was AI and machine learning Like if it was a, pet food business,

we're using AI to figure out what kind of food your pet

wants to eat. Right?

Yeah.

Now it's now it's the creator economy,

crypto tokens and NFTs.

And is the, metaverse like a rebrand almost of like AR VR or something like that?

It is, it is the metaverse. I mean, I've been around a long time and I remember the game doom. I mean, second life was a true metaverse experience, right? and it was a big deal. There were a lot of people in it. It was predictive of everything that's happening right now.

You could be an avatar in the space. You could interact with other people. You could go to different lands, et cetera, et cetera. And it just didn't work. And I don't remember the exact dates, but that was probably pre 2010. Now people are trying again.

I

mean, people are going All. in on metaverse now.

Yeah, but I mean, some of it is rebranding but some of it, I mean, he pivoted the whole company to focus on mobile which was in retrospect, the right move.

Yup.

you know, riff with me a little bit on how you think we're all gonna interact with the metaverse

 Well there's two questions is now the right.

Hm,

Right. There's a possibility a year or two from now. You and I could be talking and say, remember when

every pitch had the metaverse in

it and it didn't really take off

that's possible, certainly possible. what I've seen though, Minnie is on the timing thing. If enough people are putting enough money into it and really digging into it, they force the timing to happen.

Yeah, like self-driving cars

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that metaverse is going to turn into something. Because there's so many people putting so much money into it, relentlessly what will it be in two years?

I mean, if I knew that specifically, I would not be on the phone with you, I'd be, you know, funding a startup that does it specifically, even

though I've invested in a few one here called after-party that we're, co-investors in,

no investor.

That is in the NFT creator economy Metta Versie kind of space. I believe something's going to happen. I do believe something's going to happen. People are spending real money on this stuff. So aren't we already there in a way, like roadblocks has 50 million daily active users or something. Is that the start or are we talking about something totally differentfor sure. I mean, roadblocks is a great example. It's not med Diversey in the way people are talking about metaverse though. I don't think

explain what the distinction

if the people who are really betting on metaverse win, just like we talked about streaming services for music and video services, there's not going to be 20 or 30 to 40 that are popular.

There's going to be five or less that are popular. And what are those five or less offer you a completely immersive world?

Hmm.

Let's say Facebook wins with Metta. I put my Oculus headset on

I go into the world of. And in their world, I can do gaming and I can watch movies and I can listen to music and I can experience new things and I can see digital art. And they want me to do that all in their world where I have different skins.

I mean, it's ready. Player one come to truth. Right? Rudder player. One was a predictive movie for sure. And people who haven't seen it should watch it. And you haven't seen in three years, you should watch it again. but the difference between roadblocks and the metaverse, I mean, the word Metta means like over everything, right?

It's not an accidental word is it's the place you go, where you take on a persona and you do everything.

Okay. Yeah, good distinction. But we are, we are going into Fortnite to play games and hanging out with friends and go to concerts. So it feels like it is calming. I agree. . I said, my bet is it does work how it works, I think has to do with social adoption and acceptance that we can't fully predict yet.

Hmm. How about how does web three layer in for you? You know, what do you have thoughts on what type what's real there?

Well, how do you set? How would you many separate crypto crater economy, tokens, NFT? What would you put in web three? That's not in those.

Oh, I mean, I probably see some B2B DFI invoice payments stuff, but let's, let's pick on NFTs because I know we have a mutual interest there.

Sure.

Well, what do you think is exciting there? So, if teams as a digital currency, for things you like to spend money on will be a really big deal.

Okay.

And if Ts for what's the polite way of saying this, like things that seem hot in the moment that don't really have any tangible value, I think are a flash in the pan. So I'll give you a specific example and I'm sure I'll upset some people with this, but so MBA, top shop is probably one of the best examples of success of NFTs, right?

And you can go on there. You could have six or nine months ago and purchase. One of the dunks that LeBron James data and the Laker game that you thought was particularly special. so you,

quote own the digital rights to that clip, but ESPN has the rights to that clip because they aired it. The Lakers have the rights to that clip because that's in their contract.

LeBron has the rights to that clip because it sits in his contract. So what did you really buy?

I bought it on the Ethereum blockchain.

Exactly, but you don't really own anything. Right? So honestly, those I think are a flash in the pan

and they're going to go, somebody creates a digital piece of art. That's truly digital, and one person gets to own it. And it's tracked on the blockchain. I think that's going to be a real thing. You use NFTs maybe to get into certain Mehta versus,

Yep.

So this metaverse has an NFT and it's

Basically.

the currency or economy that you use to own certain space in that metaverse or place certain things in that metaverse and it's going to be meaningful. So when it's for digital goods services, access, I think it's real when it's for a theoretical ownership of a physical thing

in the real world, I think it's not going to last

Sure. And Crypto is still very early in volatileno, in crypto, still all over the map. I mean, Bitcoin was at 66,000 a month and a half ago. Now it's at 46,000 and some people think it's going to a million and some people feel the thing is going to zero.

Yeah,

And then there's so many tokens now beyond Bitcoin and Ethereum and others, right.

And do you want to have a wallet with 50 tokens? I don't think so.

You might want to have five tokens or less. I mean, that will consolidate as well.

And you don't think there's a Metta wallet layer on top that makes it manageable to have a couple dozen tokens. It could, but if you look at the history of all this stuff, there's usually less than five winners. Right? We talked about it with music. I don't think there's going to be 30 tokens that people want in their wallet.

 let's talk about your podcast a few minutes.

Okay.

I think it's related here.

It's absolutely related

 Maybe tell me about one of your guests who is particularly interestingCasey Wasserman, who runs a Wasserman media group, probably one of the most understated people in entertainmentthey represent 3000 athletes, including most of the Lakers.

They bought a music agency called paradigm in 2020, which represents Coldplay, Kendrick Lamar, Billie Eilish. You know, we talked a lot about. Streaming concerts and live events

what does he think about streaming concerts?

He, thinks that they're not going to be big. he thinks, and through a couple of my podcasts, I kind of changed some of my mindset. I was thinking, I just want to watch things at home. I have a good sound system. I have a nice big screen. And then my daughter and I, my wife went to a concert at the Hollywood bowl.

That was a benefit concert for the American foundation for suicide prevention. And I'm not embarrassed or ashamed to say many. You know, we lost a daughter to suicide a little over 12 years ago at the age of 15. So that was an important concert for us personally, to go to, to support, but, you know, dojo, cat was there.

Coldplay was there. and when Coldplay plays, they give you these bracelets that light up and not all the bracelets light up the same color. And we're sitting like, I don't know, a third of the way back from center stage at the Hollywood bowl. And you turn around and there's 6,000 people all singing the same song as you with the lights, just gorgeous. You cannot get that experience of.

And Casey talked a lot about that and he never thinks that's going away.

He thinks they have to do a better job of being treated.

Meaning when you go to the stadium, you should have something digital. And when you go to get a hotdog, you ordered it on your phone.

You just go right to a place to hotdogs. There, you get it. You go back to your seat or it comes to your seat. He thinks there's things you can do to enhance that live experience. But he convinced me live, will remain.

got it. And because we're running out of time, let me bring this back to investing all of this great stuff we talked about, do you still have a core focus on media? Like, should I come to you with all , my media deals? And you know, what do you focus on investing wise?

So first and foremost, I'm helping a crew. So anything I say, I bring to them like after party and you know, the typical deal, and this might be helpful for you to know is if you're a venture partner, the right thing, your obligation is to bring it to your firm. If for some reason the firm says no, then depending on your deal, mine is then I can invest personally. So first and foremost, they bring things to a crew. I help them generally, but I'm certainly seen as sort of a community consumer gaming guy, So those are the things that I know the most. And typically , one of my things in venture is like, I won't invest in anything. I don't understand,

even if it's a good investment, if I don't understand it, I look at my track record over a hundred investments. The bad ones are things that I thought were hot that I didn't understand.

And the good ones are all things I understood.

Hmm. But you, do you have any other thoughts on just responsibility? For tech responsibility in our ecosystem, things obviously like teen health, It

hits a very harsh, personal nerve with me. Right. So I already mentioned in this podcast, my daughter Grayson just two months shy of 16, died by suicide. Those of us that have lost people to suicide, they tell you not to say commit suicide, but died by suicide. I say she died because of mental health issues.

 It started at age nine. She had true mental health disease. It was a six year struggle for us that ended in the worst possible way. And in that last year, she was on Facebook and it was not helpful. was absolutely not helpful.

And we're talking about in 2009,

Yeah.

before it is what it is

Gotten worse. Yeah.

It's Gotten worse. I mean, I stopped using it except for some friends, personal posts. About three years ago,

I call it Fakebook. You know, it's the fake perfect life that people post

And it makes people who are not living that life, which is 99% of us feel inadequate or less than, or have body images. And I think it's a horrible. You know, I won't say who, but I know people that were early at Facebook who say, I really want it fixed. Cause I don't want my legacy to be the thing that was so bad for the social environment.

Yeah.

Uh, but it's an absolutely important, big social issue for our time right now.

It's huge. even think that people closest to it. Mike Jones, who is the CEO of MySpace, and he's super articulate about how we need a different social environment with empathy built in. Yeah. Well, love talking to you. I mean, I could talk for hours. You have so many insights. I have so many more questions, but we will all tune into your podcast.

Thank you so much for that. I appreciate you having me.