Former mayor of Stockton, Michael Tubbs is with me today. When he was 26 years old, mayor Tubbs became the youngest mayor of any major American city. Mayor Tubbs grew up in Stockton, went to Stanford and has earned many, many accolades, including Forbes 30 under 30 and Fortunes 40 under 40. He's now running Tubbs ventures, a firm with a heavy focus on government technology and solving fundamental societal problems. Michael Tubbs, thanks for joining me.

Thanks so much for having me.

I think I covered a few of the highlights in the introduction. You have had national press, you've had a documentary made about you, but I'd still love to, you know, hear it from you, a little bit of your background, because I think it informs a lot of what you're doing now.

Yeah, born and raised in Stockton, California, Stockton was home. In fact, LA is the only place I lived outside of college, outside of Stockton, California. So, I grew up in Stockton and grew up with amazing entrepreneurial community of people who are just poor. They were smart, they had great ideas, they were resourceful, they had hustle, they had grit, they had resilience, they bounced back from challenges, they just didn't have money, right?

But those traits were so much embedded in how I was growing up. My mom was single, she had me as a teenager. And really stressed, really a couple things I think are foundational. One was education. Even though she only had a high school diploma, she was like, I'm laughing because she's way more extreme than I am with my own children. But like anything less than an A was actually unacceptable, like you might not eat. Like, she was just like, insistent on like, the only way out of this is like, you have to just be exemplary. So she went to extreme measures to get us there. And then she also taught me, and my family taught me that I wasn't better than anybody, but that nobody was better than me. That is because people have more money or have more research like, never feel like you're better than anyone, but also never feel like anyone's better than you, like, you are just as important, just as worthy, just as smart, and that was helpful.

And then the third thing they really taught me, and it comes from sort of my faith tradition and, and going to church all the time, etc., was this idea of like, you can't just care about yourself, like, you have to care about the world, like, it's not enough not to do harm, you have to actively do good, and that's what it meant to be a person of faith.

So, grew up in Stockton graduated high school, was able to go to Stanford spent four years there, and I think that was sort of a huge inflection point, because it was just another extreme, like, from an extreme, like, not extreme poverty, but from a place with, like, a lot of trauma, a lot of issues, etc. First one in my high school to get into Stanford, to a place with, like, limitless opportunity. Like, I was like a kid in a candy store, and I remember my classmates would be so stressed about, like, papers. I'm like, y'all, like, let's take a break. Like, we're stressed about papers and books, I have little friends from high school who are stressed about pampers and bottles and taking care of another human, like, our stress is easy, like, we're stressed about, like, a paper that has no real consequence, like, we'll be fine.
And, but it was also just a place where there was so many yeses, like, in Stockton, oftentimes, particularly in school, I would get kicked out of class, or I was told I was too ambitious or thinking too big, or who did I think I was, or we can't do that, there was always a resource, but Stanford was the exact opposite.

Like literally everything I got in trouble with at school, in high school, since college is like why people like me, like literally everything that was on my report card is like now why I'm on this podcast, right? So, but Stanford was the first place outside of my church and outside of my home where I was able to show up as myself. So, and then, but then also Stanford was interesting because A, it was the first place I was able to reflect on what I saw in Stockton. So, I think oftentimes when you grow up, you think the world is the way it is because somebody very smart said this is the way it should be, or there can't be an alternative, like, you see, like, all, all, clearly. This must be the most optimal because if there was something better, we would be doing it. So, then I was like, well, wait, wait, what? Like, everything I saw was a result of like a policy decision that someone who's no better than me made? Like, like, like, like, that's literally why we have no grocery stores? It really blew my mind.
And then when I was running for city council, another good friend of mine Evan Spiegel was building Snapchat. We would come home at like, I would come back from campaigning, and he always had his refrigerator stacked with the Starbucks Frappuccino. So, I would always come by, get a frap, like, I need my frap, bro.

And he was, he was a Stanford classmate.?

Yeah, he's a Stanford classmate, I'm like, what, what, what's, what's going on? And he would just tell me about building or he would complain about or talk about his meetings with venture capitalists, like it's that word again. I'm like, bro, who are these people? He was describing them to me.
And I was like, well, how would they even get what you're like, you know, what you're doing? And he was like, well, one of them, he got excited because his daughter was using the app and like her whole school was. And I was like, wow, like these, like, so, so I've always been obsessed with sort of who are the people that A either set the rules like government and how the government invests, or B, who like, pick winners and losers in terms of the technology that becomes ubiquitous.

Right. But you're still at Stanford and you decided to run for city council?

So, longer story short, ran for city council when I was 21 years old because my cousin was a victim of a homicide in Stockton, and I just felt like I wouldn't be able to rest unless I knew for myself that I had tried, that this was an issue that could not be solved. So, I went back, spent eight years in local government, loved it, hated it, learned a lot, did a lot, did the first basic income program in the country that was city led, mayor led. Scholarship programs actually did reduce homicides and shootings, so I was really excited to get the answer to that question.

Created a program so that I'll, even though I'm no longer mayor, every high school student graduating, going to a two year or four years, is guaranteed a scholarship. Super proud of that. And then I lost reelection, I think, because for a lot of reasons, but I think also like government is the one place where actually not breaking things and making the status quo just tenable enough is all you need to, like, it's like the opposite, like you don't want to make too much change because people get upset.

Yeah, I had Adrian Fenty on the show and his main thing that he said was like, once you get into government, you're not rewarded for taking risks.
No, no, you just get, everyone just fights you, like, you just get, you just fight all the time, and then when it's successful, everyone's like, yeah, we knew it was successful, and then when it's not successful, everyone's like, oh, you suck, you're terrible, blah, blah, blah. So yeah, so lost reelection, and then also, there was like some nefarious, but I guess you could call it smart, manipulation of the algorithm of Facebook, in particular, to sort of, show folks every day, like false stories about what was happening in this city, but like every day for four years. So it just became reality, like crime was lower.

But that's becoming a bigger issue. That's becoming a bigger issue, right?

It's terrifying! Crime was actually 17 year lows when I was mayor, we had more cops than ever, yet the narrative was crime is higher. It's so dated. It was like we, and I'm a nerd, right? So I'm like, no, we're not perfect, but like these aren't my numbers. It was just so difficult fighting perception. It was Covid and I had to be big brother and like, shut everything down and wear your mask. And people were like, no. So anyway, lost reelection. But over my time in office, because of our proximity to San Francisco, I just built a lot of relationships with folks like Sam Altman and other folks, then Sam said, well, would you want to be a scout for me? Just see if you would like VC, like learn, like here's, I think it was like 250,000 dollars or something like you'd spend it how you went on and find companies.

So I did that, really liked it. And then when I lost reelection, I realized that, wait, this is kind of a job, so from that's where Tubbs Ventures was born.
I have the same thing. Like I always say, I want to be in the room where it happens. Like that's like a guiding force. But you think that might be in government.

Yeah, I think it has to be in government. Like, so I'm obsessed with government and now tech, because I'm obsessed with scale, and I'm obsessed with what's ubiquitous, right? And I think, even more so than tech, government, love it, hate it, it's ubiquitous. The law is the law, like, government touches everybody.

And especially the most vulnerable, especially those that you may not be able to like generate profit from like government, like at its best, not saying it's how it operates, but at its best and at its core, should really be about the common good. Should really be about setting the floor. It should really be about protecting the most vulnerable and making sure that everyone has access to opportunity.
And then getting out the way so folks can do the great things have ideas to do. And then tech is ubiquitous because I mean like, you saw Sam Altman went on a, like, worldwide tour on OpenAI, holding court with presidents and prime ministers and, like, literally, or you see, like, Google, you big, like, Zoom, like, so much of technology is, touches all of our lives and actually moves at a way faster pace than government. Um, So I'm like, I need to be in that room, too,

I'm interested in that overlap. What do you think of tech weighing in on government? Like I'm totally comfortable saying that I opposed Donald Trump, but there was a lot of like VC on Twitter talking about government. How do you see that interaction?

Yeah, I mean, I, I get, I am, my wife would say I'm an extremist on most things. So in the same way, I just think with leadership in general comes responsibility. And I think that responsibility is not to necessarily partisanship, but it is to a set of values, right? Like, I think as a leader, you should, it should not be controversial to articulate a set of values.

And some of the values that we're all like taught growing up, like I have kids and we read these stories to them and all these stories have the same sort of some, some morals. And then be able to at least say I oppose A, because it conflicts with these values
I don't like people who lie.

Yeah, or assault women, like, you know, like, so that I do think though, because so many of our elected leaders oftentimes aren't the smartest people or the most familiar with sort of what's happening in like the world like technology. I do think tech leaders oftentimes have undue influence on policy matters because like the regulators don't understand the technology

hmm. Mm

And I know some people will that power, at least for some good, but no other people just willed it for what's good for my bottom line and my shareholders. So I wish the government was more equipped and government leaders were more equipped to actually play the role as regulator as saying the guardrails and doing it, in the space, I think oftentimes it comes in too late. So I think in an ideal world, there will be some sort of, I call it a sandbox, where like, If not the elected leaders, their staff, and like folks who are building new technologies can at least have conversation.

But I don't know whether it's going to be a government regulation or whether it's going to be private companies regulating themselves.
Well it sounds like, but the sad thing is, and the scary thing is, it's probably going to have to be public companies regulating themselves for dimensions of our region. I just don't think our government's, but that's why I still care about government. I'm like, we should have folks who, even if they're not tech experts, can at least set again, like some, a framework around, okay, our privacy policies, our do no harm, like just like, even if you're not in the weeds, you gotta give people rules.

I want to ask about Ted Ventures, but one more on that topic, which is are you still working with, Gavin Newsom?
Yeah, so I have an unpaid volunteer advisor for economic mobility, and one of the things we've been working on is modernizing our state technology and sort of making a simple concept. How do you make it easier for people to access and apply for the benefits? We know they qualify for it.
A hundred percent! Oh my God. I worked on this where it was like, if you want to apply for food stamps in California, it was like the mobile app. Like it didn't really work on mobile. Like you had to have like a, you know, you had to pull out your desktop computer or something. You had to go to the library, but it didn't save state. It was ridiculous.

I think I'm really motivated by this problem. So I'm going to spend a lot of time on this because I just think it just makes no sense to me that if I know you qualify for one thing, you probably qualify for other things. And all we need is for you to put your information in once and it goes like there has to be a way to do that. And like, really, I talk about this every day. I'm obsessed with it. So if I've, if any people who actually code, you know how to build things listening, please text me or email me.

All right. So coders who want to work with Michael Tubbs to make government better? Send us a note. And now let's transition to Tubbs Ventures. Tell me what you're doing there.

So Tubbs Ventures is really sort of a uh, output of the ideas I shared, but really around sort of how do we identify and support founders who are trying to build a technology that makes government better or in government adjacent fields like healthcare, climate etcetera. So Pre Seed, Seed stage fun, only fund one, so pretty small. We've made 20 investments thus far. So we've invested in companies that are using like AI to help public defenders with their caseloads, brilliant. Or a company mindset that's raising their series A now, they built a TurboTax for disability benefits.
And sort of what we offer is, relationships to people with a lot more money, right? A lot of bigger checks, but also like a lot of help because government as you know, it's just like civic tech government tech.The technology is the easy part, right? The hard part is understanding procurement. The hard part is getting on the agenda. The hard part is getting the government leader's attention. And to your point earlier, because government is incentivized to not fail and to not make mistakes and to not take risks. Your technology represents a risk. Like your new concept, even if it's better, and the thing is you don't get promoted by taking risks. You get promoted by not breaking things.

And then PowerBridge is helping with like, Messaging and comms, like, how do you talk to, political leaders, like, what do we say about fears of displacement? Like, how are we realizing we're in a different world that speaks a different language and has a different set of incentives than the world of tech and VC. And so I think, because our check sizes are between $150k to $250k, so although the check size isn't huge, I think, I hope we offer more. I think, I hope we punch a little bit above our weight.

So I came from the world of tech, right? Which was like move fast and break things basically. And I'm paired with a woman who came from city government and she had an acronym, which was RAP, which was reliable, accountable, predictable. And it was like the furthest culture clash.
Wait, that's the worst thing I've ever heard. What's it called? Reliable? What's it again?

Accountable and predictable.

That's literally government. Wow. I'm gonna write this down.

Well, but I get it, like, that was what they strove for. They wanted to be predictable and accountable. And we were trying to like, move fast, be transparent finding that language though, I think is what you were talking about. You coach people like selling to cities is hard? Are people selling to federal government? And like, do you have certain areas you like more than others?

I think I like cities more than others because that's just like my world. And mayors are my actual friends. So I'm like, oh, let's go. I think the federal government is interesting because there's pockets of innovation. It's just so big and I'm not a big, like, detailed person. And those damn federal procure, like, you gotta, so I think I like, so to answer your question, I think I like cities and counties because that's more selling to people. I think the higher up you get in government, the more you're selling to a machine, or to an RFP, and you can still talk to people around it, but it's not the same, like, you go to a city, you talk to the mayor, like, hey mayor, this is an interesting technology, you should look at it.

Mayors are your friends. It's such an awesome statement. You know, just your trajectory is amazing. But like, I, I think I saw that you, did you start the group, the mayors for guaranteed income?

Yeah, so in 2020, at the height of the pandemic, we had already been doing the Guaranteed Basic Income Program in Stockton, and all my mayor friends were texting us, were like texting and figuring out, this is the time of like, after the murder of George Floyd, so all these protests happening in our cities, and we would be on Zoom calls, and finally I said, you guys, like, I don't think we could do business as usual.
It feels like with COVID, with these protests, I think people are just demanding like a vision for something different and new. This might not be everything, but I think we should all just say we support a guaranteed income. And like, if you don't want to do it, fine, let's get the federal government to do it.

And I got, like, 10 of the best mayors in the country to join me, so it was, like, Eric Garcetti, who was then mayor of LA, Keisha Ballum, she was then mayor of Atlanta, folks like Aja Brown, who was then mayor of Compton, said, like, just a real who's who of mayors, and we wrote an op ed at the time that said, listen, we're calling for a guarantee of income, and then, connection to tech, Jack Dorsey heard what we were doing, and, Gave 15 million dollars.

So through that, I was able to give 30 cities half a million dollars to their own guaranteed income programs. And now fast forward, well, just 4 years later, we have 158 mayors who are part of this coalition. We're going to start a legislators for guaranteed income pretty soon.

It's really impressive, what you've built there. And if people want a compelling story about your program and your journey, I would love to point people to the city arts and lecture that you did. And it prompted me to want to ask you about how you learned to be such a good storyteller and particularly sort of lessons that all of our CEO's can use as they are honing their storytelling and communication skills.

I, I think communication is just everything with leadership. Like, at some level, you're not going to be able to do everything, and you're going to have to be able to communicate clearly to get your priorities, so people understand what your priorities are. But be also communicate inspirationally so folks want to do this work, but it's not fun every day. It's grinding and like really pain of vision. So I think reading and watching, like just watching great storytellers and communicators, like for me, because I grew up in church, every Sunday I got to watch Ray Communicators for 18 years, just watching pastors and folks speak, and then also doing it, I think you have to practice.

I think doing it, yeah.

Yeah, Toastmasters. Like, I didn't realize this, but I was looking through, like, my old books. Like, in high school, I bought a book on, like, transformational speaking. It was, like, reading, like, highlighting, like, I think it's just, like, like, anything else, it's a muscle. It's like coding. You got to do it, like, and you mess up and do it in different settings.

I would encourage people to practice speaking extemporaneously. One of the best things I did at Stanford was do debate, and I was terrible at it. It was a, was a parliamentary debate. Yeah, it was a parliamentary debate. So that means there was no notes.
So, so to your point, I think it's practice, I think it's reading, and I think it's also having deep empathy. I think oftentimes people speak with the idea of like what they want to say versus speaking in terms of it's not just what you want to say, that's important, what's your message, but also what and how, what does your audience want to hear or how do they want to hear it?

Yeah.

Because I think oftentimes people want to be so serious, but sometimes if you like sound like super impressive, maybe some humor might actually bring people in because they're like, okay, he's not, he's chill dude. Or sometimes being super technical I think oftentimes people just get up there and talk and it's like, well, you're not thinking about me. You're just doing it to be done. I think if you think about it, communicating as like, This is a message I'm really excited to give, like I think I have something to give you. I'm excited. I'm offering you something. And let me figure out how to give you this gift. You'll probably get, yeah, better outcomes.

I mean, I guess if you knock on a thousand doors, like, I think it also helps, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it also, I think this also speaking in front of unfamiliar audiences, like, like when I was mayor, I was 26. I was the first black mayor Stockton has ever had. Stockton's not the most liberal place in the world. So I was, I was in some crazy rooms or having to speak to my police union.

No, I remember one day I had to speak to the police union and I had to speak to the, activist protesting all within like two hours. And both these folks hate me at this point, right? Because they're like, he's not doing enough. Or he's not defending us, he hates us and they're like, well you and so, and having to sit and communicate the same message about a certain way I was trying to get done and what I believed. But in a way that they both could hear. It was, that was good practice. Or I remember speaking to Rotary Clubs, where I was the youngest person by 50 years sometimes, literally, literally. I'd have to speak and they would be like, slow down. Like, you're talking too fast. And so that was helpful. Or yeah, like, or like, South is so diverse.

So having to speak to different communities, I think also sort of, made me realize that you can be, you have to be really, I think to be, I'll shut up after this, but I think to be a good speaker, so much of it is speaking, but so much of it is also like, are you comfortable with yourself? Like, how do you feel?

Do you feel comfortable with yourself in this room, in this space? With the spotlight on you, right? And I think so much, I think that's so much of it, because even if you don't know what you're talking about, if you're comfortable, it's not gonna be as awkward, right? It's still be a good presentation because like, you know, I have, I have nothing to prove to you.

Like, I'm here to give you a gift. And I think sort of having to, and also like, when you're a mayor, I speak at like funerals of like young people and like old people, like one of the, when I was mayor, the city's patriarch passed Mr. Alex Spanos and his wife and I was called and love the family, but they're also a big Republican family.

And I was a eulogist, 27 years old. I'm sitting next to Pete Wilson and Karl Rove, who are also speaking. So I think it's just like, it was just the reps and just not being afraid to speak. In unfamiliar places or to audience I would think be hostile and I think it also has time to communicate as I said earlier in the language of values because I'm political person, that's just how I operate. But I've learned that if I can speak it with a set of values that even people who I disagree with find a way to agree, but, oh, no, actually, Tubbs, I, I, we, like, we have that same value. We may interpolate it different, but, like, at the, like, I believe, like, like, we both believe this. So, that was a pretty long answer, not concise.

No, I think there's so much, though, that tech can learn, I mean, from your experience and you're, you're now a VC, so your job is sort of to help these, you know, young CEOs early in their career. Can I ask about losing an election and like just going through hard times?
Man, it's so funny, and I think, but everyone says this, you know, when you go through a, it's quite a hard time for a reason. So, when you go through it, it's hard, but looking back, you're like, I'm so thankful, like, wow. Like, in my faith tradition, it always, like, one of the scriptures is that all things work together.

Like, all things work together. But it's hard to believe that when things aren't working. Like, it's not working. losing was tough for a couple of reasons. One, because I wasn't perfect, but I had, this is like my third campaign. So, I was like, okay, to win a campaign, the formula is, you raise the most money, check. You get the most endorsements, check. You knock on doors and talk to people, check. And if you're an incumbent, you have a record to run on, check. So, okay, it won't be like, I won my first election with 62 percent of the vote, and I won my second election, that was for city council, for mayor, I won with 71 percent of the vote.

Wow.

I'm like, no, I know how to do this. that was just tough to lose after you feel like you've done everything right. But I think particularly for founders that happens sometimes, like you have done everything right. But maybe the market's not right, or maybe like some things are out of your control. And that, so that, that was tough. And I think the second thing that made it tough was it was so public.

Yeah.

Like, everyone, so I couldn't even mourn in private, it was no, like, from the second the votes were counted, I was down by a little bit at that point. I was getting text messages from everybody. From folks like Michael Bloomberg, who's like, what happened? To Vice President Harris, like, what happened? To Gavin Newsom, like, what happened? Like, like, you know how embarrassing that is? Like, all these, all these busy people are like, well, I didn't think to help you because I thought you had, like, folks were being helpful, but at the time, particularly at a, in a very vulnerable state, I felt like people were blaming me, like, like, what did you not do right?

So that was tough. And then it also was tough 'cause I really cared. I, I really wanted to be mayor. I really had no contingency plan. I really just knew, and that's the thing that was, that's what made it really difficult, you know, when you have some, because when you're a leader, you have conviction. Like, you know, like, this is right.

This was, and I was sure this was, I'm, I knew there was nothing that could dissuade me, that I was supposed to be the mayor. So then to lose. It's like, well, damn. But no, but, but since then, I think I've learned a very important question that I think is, the question for leadership.
And oftentimes we're asked, like, what are we , willing to win for? But in losing, I've learned the answer to the question, like, what am I willing to lose for? And I think that's such a powerful question. Like, what are you willing to take a risk for? What are you willing to lose for? What are you willing to be wrong for?

What are you willing to be ridiculed for? What are you willing to have people not like you for? Like, like it's easy to have conviction when you're winning. But we still care about poverty and basic income and opportunity, even if it's a losing issue, even if you lose. And it was very clear to me like, well, yeah, like, I actually, that's the worst.

I'm still dedicated to this. So I think that clarity has been helpful. Number two, I think it just taught me again, redirections, like, that's time to get still and quiet and not to like, all this loss, but you think about, okay, this way didn't work, but is there something else I need to be doing? Like, if I had one, I wouldn't be on this podcast, I wouldn't be doing venture stuff. I'd still be arguing with people about, like, following health mandates or fixing dog parks and other very important stuff. And I think the third thing I learned from losing, which is so obvious but I didn't see at the time, was that the status quo is the status quo because it has a lot of friends.

The reason why it's a status quo is that folks are okay with it, even if they're not benefiting from it, even if it's harming them. That when you make change, you make enemies. When you make change, you're, when you disrupt it. There's always a pushback, and I just, young and dumb, I didn't know, I just thought, like, you just made change and you kept making change, like, this needs to be fixed, this needs to be fixed, this needs to be fixed, and I don't know if this is the right lesson, or I'm still trying to figure out what this lesson is, but sort of the balance between, like, urgency and priorities, right?

Because I think there's so many fights I had that could have waited until term two. but, my reflection, I'm like, you know what, maybe I didn't have to end the public golf subsidy. At the same time, I did guaranteed income, at the same time, I did alternatives to police, like, maybe that was just a lot of change, and maybe I could have been like, you know what, I care about these two things the most, let's fight, fight, fight, fight, fight on those, and maybe this third thing, which, which is, like, really, it's the golf thing that really created a lot of, but the other stuff people were upset about, but it was the golf that brought, like, oh, hell no, get him out.

And that's 27 year old, but now as a 33 year old I'm like, okay, let them people golf. Like if you get all these other things, we do a golf later. But everything, so I think just like balancing sort of urgency, but also just thinking about the cost of like this, the cost of action. Like, okay, do this or not, but let's just have a conversation about what it might cost.
And maybe you might. not, not do it, but delay in doing like, you don't have to do everything today, is the lesson, you don't have to do everything right now.

I really liked the idea of what are you willing to lose for? Cause I get scared. Like I don't want to have a target on my back, pretty loud naturally, I'm always trying to like tone it down. But I like the empowerment, for certain things.
Yeah, and not for everything either, because my issue is like, it's for everything, like, here, shoot me.
It's like what they said, like, what's the hill you're willing to die on? Like, it's like, it can't be every hill, and it can't be no hills, it should be a hill or two that you're like, you know what, this is what, and also, and, and, The last thing I, I I say I learned is that sort of purpose and position are different things.

Because I think I thought that my purpose was to be mayor. So when I lost, I was like, oh my gosh, my purpose and then I spent some time reflecting, I'm like, no, the title was a means to an end. mayor wasn't your purpose. Mayor was the tool. Your purpose was this work around increasing opportunity. Your purpose was this work around ending poverty. And you could still do that work without being mayor.
Yeah. So how much do you think your purpose is venture capital? you're in it now, like what are you finding in the role of VC?
Ah, man, I am finding that first of all, it's tough. Like, I thought it'd be a lot easier, honestly.

I think we all did

It is hard. It's hard to raise money. And I thought I'm pretty good. That's all I did. Like, I raised money. It's hard to raise money. I think it's hard to allocate time. And then I think, it's still as hard to say no, particularly as someone who knows what it's like to have a dream.
To have something that people are like, you can't do it. I don't want to be that person in someone's book. Right. I pitched Michael Tubbs and he told me no, like I just really, so I, I struggle with that sometimes like, ah, but I've also realized that sort of sometimes saying no is a gift.
And I told people how many no's I got from friends that I was raising this fund. They're like, what? I'm like, yes. And this is my friend y'all. Um, But I've also learned that leadership is leadership, right? I think that, for me, has been the common thread.

I was gonna ask you about that, like identifying leaders, like, and it's, I talk about distance traveled, like you are the greatest example of distance
traveled.

Oh, that's my thing. I'm like, okay, like where you come from, you did all this, oh yeah, it's not this, there's something you're going to do that's gonna be amazing. So that are also just like folks who've done something before. Like, like even if you fail, like what'd you do before? or folks that have, like, vested personal interests outside of making money and what they're trying to solve. The tech has to be good.

There has to be some expertise, but I don't know I just think that you can hire for that, but like leadership, conviction, like values, I think that's the hardest thing to teach. Like folks have to have at least some of it.

Okay, so you're writing a hundred fifty, two hundred fifty K checks out of tubs ventures. You're a co-investor bringing this amazing network. You're usually not a lead.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. I'm not in a position to lead rounds. Yeah. I'm still learning, but happy to be a very helpful follow on check in. And then once I'm in, I'm in, I have ADHD so if I'm in, I'm call me, text me like, what do you need? What are we doing? How do, how do we do it?

And you're here in LA.

I'm here in LA. I live near the Grove. And to your point, and I thank you for the work you're doing and bringing a community together because I think LA is too big, has too much human capital, has too many smart people, has too many assets to not be more of a player.

We're getting there. It's really exciting to see it happen. So glad you're a part of it.

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. If you have any good government or government adjacent deals, please let me know.

Great. Well, I'm wishing you great success at Tubbs Ventures.

Thank you.