Peter Goldberg — PLG Ventures

Wednesday, May 25, 2022

Great episode if you like entertaining guests.  Peter invests up to $250k initial checks out of PLG Ventures and is not afraid to invest super-early (pre-product, pre-revenue).  

He helps his portfolio companies on all things organizational behavior, but was formerly CEO of AmTrust, the largest privately held bank.


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Welcome back to the podcast. Peter Golberg is with us today. He is the managing partner at PLG Ventures, where he likes to invest really early pre product pre-revenue sometimes, which is great for the ecosystem. Before PLG, he was CEO at AmTrust, the largest privately held bank in the U.S..

I mean, I have to ask him how he became CEO of the largest, privately, largest privately held bank in the U.S.. He’s a frequent collaborator with us at TenOneTen. He’s a good friend of ours. And he is known for having the best V.C. holiday dance party. Peter, welcome to the show. Thank you both.

Hi, David. How many? Hi. Welcome. Great. So we like to cover the the basics of your fund and then get into the more exciting, you know, dance party type discussion. But let’s cover the basics of, you know, what size checks.

So we are a family office back venture firm, meaning we don’t have any limited partners. This is my personal capital in my family offices, capital. So it allows us to do things in many cases with more flexibility, more freedom. And we don’t have the same fiduciary duty that other fund managers have when you have limited partners. So we can get in and do things sometimes that other the more traditional funds can. We have just under 50 companies in the portfolio. We’ll write an initial check up to 250000 a start. We’ll do follow ons for the winners and even the ones that sometimes need a little extra push and jumpstart. But our largest position is a million. We have stuff at a half a million. So at the end of the day, we have a nice little portfolio that we’re very proud of.

So when you have that flexibility, sometimes we’ll look at things that we think are really hot companies and it’s hard to get into a series, A series B, they’re raising ten million dollars. And we wouldn’t we wouldn’t do that because it doesn’t work with our portfolio construction like you ever do.

What are these are the wild things you do that you can’t do if you’ve got LP who are stricter?

Well, I mean, there’s a deal that I’m going to be literally funding at the end of this month. It is a 40 million pre raising 15 million dollars and they had 14 and a half accounted for. They wanted to save some money for some celebrities.

And that’s definitely not made. I don’t know, wides, definitely not my good looks and my charming personality. But they knew the people that were leading the deal that I could be very additive. This is way past what my typical check, you know, valuation and ownership. But I love what they’re doing. And I think this has the potential being a multibillion dollar company. So I do have that flexibility to say, you know something, I want to put money in that deal. And, you know, I have to have discipline because then at some point it’s like, well, I may as well just put money in stocks and buy. I mean, is where do you draw the line for investments?

I’m not going to be as hands on probably with a company like that.

But, yes, I have ultimate flexibility. I actually did a deal that was the most expensive was one hundred and seventy million pre.

Do you have any sort of reporting requirement? Zero. So, OK. So you don’t you don’t have to write quarterly letters or get to write quarterly letters and put together financials. Zero. Got it. So how do you keep yourself on on the rails?

Well, I I’m going to take back the zero. I don’t have any formal reporting. Some of my I have three sisters that are part of a family office, and I’m the general partner of. So I do want to give them updates. Last night we had a company that was on Shark Tank and everybody was texting.

This is one of the ones in the bulgy portfolio.

You better watch your company that that at that. So what holds me a little bit accountable is that when you have sisters, even though I have full authority to make the decision, you want to do the right thing. And because I’m always putting in as much, if not more money than that entity, you know, it still falls upon my shoulders. That’s what keeps me grounders because I am acting in some sort of fiduciary duty.

Just happens to be my three lovely younger sisters cannot hurt.

And other things about the fund, the basics of. Do you have an L.A. focus, consumer focus? You know, one of the things you raise your focus. Yeah.

So two thirds of our portfolio are companies in the greater L.A. area. We have a couple of New York, a couple in San Francisco, a couple in Seattle, one in Chicago, Miami.

So San Diego, swift stuff located throughout the country.

What we do that’s a little bit different. And I would say I want to make it more dramatic, mostly different than most. These is we take a real strong focus on things that have to do with organizational behavior. I have an MBA in organizational behavior. I’ve another advanced degree in leadership development.

I was the CEO, as you referenced earlier, of a large organization with thousands of employees and measuring and billions of. Assets and for us to be able to help with things like culture, leadership, development, how can a leader be more reflective? Co-founder dynamics, board governance, things that are the foundation in infrastructure. A lot of these sees it haven’t been a CEO. I mean, David obviously knows what it’s like to run a company.

They know this intellectually, but they have no clue on how to convey these types of things to a founder to help build that foundation, in my opinion, the best way.

What could be more important for a startup that’s early stage than helping them put the foundation and infrastructure in place to give them the highest probability for success and growth?

So for me, that’s what actually gives me passion. That’s why I do it.

The return, make no mistake, is important. But that’s what I wanted to do in this chapter of my life.

And so when you’re looking at companies to evaluate, are there leadership qualities that that maybe you’re looking for that other pieces don’t have a rigor around exploring?

The answer is 100 percent yes. And it’s the quality of connection.

And what I mean by that is I believe that some of the greatest leaders have the ability to connect with other people. Could be people on their team. Employees could be customers. It could be clients, whatever, to connect in a way that’s genuine and real. And if you’re able to do that, it creates this powerful bond that people can usually get the molested one plus one equals three. You know, analogy that everybody hears about when I’m doing an initial pitch or I’m with them. A lot of my questions have very little to do with the TAM and the CCAC and your business strategy and the product. It’s more about understanding the DNA of who they are. And can I connect with them? And I have to feel it. I don’t look for it.

And how do you differentiate that from just being a good salesperson?

You have to feel it. It’s a feeling it’s no different than if you’re going on a date with somebody, if you’re interviewing somebody. There’s a feeling in how they make you feel. If somebody is a salesman, that doesn’t usually. I know that I. It doesn’t feel warm and it doesn’t feel real.

It doesn’t feel genuine. 

Can you help people develop that quality of connection? 

We try. I mean, there’s really there’s not a lot of things you can do. I mean, it is part of your personality and your DNA. But there’s two very simple things that I think can dramatically enhance that occurring. One. No particular order would be.

Are they a reflective leader? Are they somebody that has insight into what impact they’re having on others and what impact others are having on them? My father, love them dearly, is oblivious to what impact he has. Me and my sisters. He acts a certain way. He don’t know if I’m ready to jump out the window.

It’s that your dad or your mom that I would not say he’s a reflective person.

He’s the way he is a leader that is reflective, OK, ultimately has the ability to have more information at their fingertips to make better decisions.

They still might end up coming with the ultimate same decision. But now, if they’re aware of what they just did, what impact it had on somebody else or what impact it had on them, they usually can make a better decision. So that’s self-awareness. The second thing, what sort of ties into it? Talk less and just listen. And it’s it’s not rocket science. In order to be reflective, you have to keep your mouth shut.

OK, because if you’re only hearing yourself talk, then at the end of the day, you’re not really accomplishing anything. And so I just tell them a lot of times I’ll sit in an interview watching them interview somebody and they were doing all the talking.

Well, you’re not even listening to the person to see if it’s the right fit or if it’s with their co-founder. It was a team meeting.

So I would say just those two simple things. 

And are there practical, tactical things where you say, look, one of the things is you have to understand your impact on others? Do you sit down and say, like, here’s how to run a 360 review process and get that feedback? What?

Number one, I have done that where we have facilitated 360 feedback reviews. And in this case, it was two co-founders. They were oblivious to what impact they were having onto their employees as well as each other. They thought the one person was, you know, evil and the other was terrible. Well, they both had terrible marks and they were both with me in hysterical tears because it was a very rude awakening.

So things that have to do a 360 feedback reviews things that have we have a third party company that does cultural assessment surveys that are anonymous surveys of seventy five questions to just the staff and then that’s presented to the founders. So they get a real temperature of what the culture is within the organization. But yeah, so things like that can give people the insight. 

So imagine writing 250k checks and below. You’re often not the lead investor. Do you find yourself being the first check who goes and rounds up the round or participant that joins after? What’s what’s more common for you?

In most cases, I might be the first one to be with them and then I’ll help them put the right team of we’ll call the syndicate of investors together. That’s like the vast majority of the time. I’ve set prices. I’ve set prices even with firms that are 50 times my size that have deferred to me to do it.

Things that were bridge. rounds a lot of times I’m the one helping to do different things.

I believe there is no doubt that the VSS sees the investors angels family offices could all be additive in reality in a lot of cases.

It’s not that additive. It sounds good in theory. It’s more about introductions and some emails and sometimes a pain in the neck. And it’s it’s not the, you know, rainbow and unicorn love affair that everybody thinks. So I’m that is enamored because all this firm is in a net.

Firm isn’t because a lot of firms are wrong, too.

But if I know that this group is diversified, they have different skill sets, they have different things that they can be additive to and there’s enough money to get to what the next objective is that that’s the number one thing I’m looking for is always the group is not counterproductive and it can happen.

Yeah. That I don’t take that much weight into jumping on the syndicate bandwagon because I think that’s how you get in trouble.

I actually don’t I I don’t think of you so much as a family office.

I realize technically that is what you are, but you seem to perform more of it.

Roll up your sleeves approach that I associate more with a traditional venture fund.

I appreciate that because that’s the that’s what we want to be known as. I mean, and that’s why we use the term we’re a family office best venture firm, not a venture fund, a venture firm. I want to act as we have internal reporting that I would say is as good deal flow management.

We have services to our portfolio companies for discounts, job postings, holiday parties, holiday parties that as much as any of the v._c._r.s at least in town do, because I want to be with, you know, holistically the total package. And you lean most heavily in on this emotional intelligence organizational foundation, whatever you just call it. Not true.

Oh, darn. That’s our secret sauce. Okay.

But the reality is, it sounds good in theory here.

But everybody does need a therapist every day or once a week when it boils down to it being a former banker, I’ve helped raise tens of millions of dollars.

I’ll structure the deals, making connections. That’s a lot of this is still about.

And I don’t want to diminish that. I like to have pride that I can do something above and beyond that.

But the reality is more of my time is spent on the more traditional things revolving around fund raising and problem solving rate than the organizational behavior, emotional intelligence types things.

But when that works. It’s more powerful than all those other things put together.

You didn’t grow up through the age are piece of, you know, function. You grew up as a banker. And yet your focus on emotional intelligence, like how did you learn this? How did this become the thing that you. One of the things you wanted to call out, it’s like hang your hat on.

I’m going to challenge you on that statement. Fine. In every organization, including banks, there’s a chair. I spend a tremendous amount of my career in a chair at the Bank of.

Very early age, the head of chair actually began to work for me and I set up a lot of the company policies, hiring, recruiting, retention strategy. Oh, yeah.

Hey, give us the whole verse and give us all your backers. Give me some of this. So I don’t like this impression of some white shirt buttoned down banker carrying a briefcase.

And also, as I alluded, as I alluded to earlier, I do have an MBA in organizational behavior.

Yeah, but I have an MBA. And I know I did not. And and I have another advanced degree from a school outside of Paris called INSEAD. And it was all about creating a reflective leader. Over the course of a year, run by two psycho analysts. So the reality is, while school doesn’t teach you everything. A lot of my formal education is in the world of business, in psychology. And when you’re in a large organization, even when I was running the bank, a large percentage of my time was always revolving around people issues because that’s what I’ve come.

That’s the fabric of a company.

It’s the people. So tell us about your. Tell us about your being background. Because obviously, I miss that you were working on the HRR at the bank.

Well, I started in the mailroom. Did you really at age 13? My mom wanted me to go to overnight sleep away camp. My dad says Peter is going to start working in the bank. Fizzer Dad’s bank.

It was my dad’s side of the family. It was our family’s business. And one thing led to another.

I went from the mailroom. I got one day promoted to the visa processing group for credit cards and then started to work on believing about foreclosures, RPO in delinquencies and collections.

Because my father and uncles and they said the best place for you to start is where all the crap and problems come up, because then you’ll know how to never make the loans the wrong way. From the get go. So I literally start, huh? You look like them. I was the muscle.

I was there doing the evictions.

But in all seriousness, in pretty short order, I was I was like a change agent. Right. I was the one that would go into an area and say, this is inefficient.

This is back in the day. I’m 50.

The word was re-engineering the organization.

That’s what it was in the 90s. And I was able to streamline things and figure out how to take technology and ultimately enable what some of the business processes and products needed to do, because what’s a bank in its numbers is gigabytes. It’s not a physical product like a nutrition bar or a drink. And one thing led to another. And I had the opportunity. I was very fortunate to go into a lot of areas, make them better.

So at a very early age, I was not only running technology, which when I first started in that area, there was 15, 20 people.

By the time I left, there were 600 people in the information technology group at the bank that was just internal and a lot of stuff was outsourced and it just one area led to another.

So did you work at the bank? Obviously, when you were 13, you didn’t go to summer camp that year. So you worked the naming. Did you then work at the bank after college, after MBA school?

When I graduated undergrad, hio state go Buckeyes. I started full time, but I swore I would never work for my dad and uncles.

I was never going to go work for my family.

Are you kidding me? So we started a homebuilding division where I could actually I literally bought lots and helped construct houses because we were a large single family lender for homebuilders across the country. Literally one of the largest land acquisition and development lenders in the country. And one thing led to another. But then when these other things started to happen with technology, I just could help myself. Like this area is someone efficient.

I had to make a decision. Do they want to be a builder or did I want to be a banker? And ultimately, I chose banking and it was an amazing opportunity.

So you weren’t there. So that’s you’re not. No, that was my entire not diminish that you are the CEO. That was your entire career.

Yeah. So. So the question is, well, how the hell did I become the CEO? Yeah, I know.

So what happened was I was proactive and I was ultimately going into these areas and figuring out how to write a blueprint to make them better and more efficient. And I ended up knowing more about the area than almost anybody else because I was there trying to figure out what the next step was.

At one point, where was my father and uncles? It was the three brothers, right.

It actually to take one step back. It was my grandfather.

And he ended up acquiring the bank. The bank was founded in 1889 and it was a little savings alone in Cleveland, Ohio. He died when I was 2 and my dad and uncles rolling in their 20s. So they all became full time at the bank when he passed away. And they divvied up the bank.

A third, a third, a third.

So now all son of four decades, these three brothers, they worked well together. They divided up a third, a third, a third. I come into the picture and I’m starting to take. Information technology.

I’ll take that area or, oh, you know, lending out.

And before you knew it, before I was 30, I had 50 percent of the company reporting to me.

And one uncle said, Peter, we love you. You’re doing amazing. You gotta stop. You got more responsible than any one of us. Three. I have a son. I have withas cousins.

You know, there’s a whole family here at 18 first cousins on that side of the family.

And lo and behold, I’m like, that’s great. But why should I be held back if I have the potential to do more? So my Uncle Bobby, the wise oldest of the three brothers, said, we’re gonna go hire an external person that does family business succession planning.

He did. This guy did. Chick-Fil-A family, The New York Times, all these big privately held companies.

And he came and interviewed the board. He came and interviewed the senior management. Most of the family spent time with me and made a recommendation. And the brothers said whenever the recommendation of this third party person. We’re going to end we’re not going to fight it. So what happened? The recommendation came out and I had nothing to do in regards to influence or bribery. But I’m gonna be very humbled when I say this. He said this was something in his opinion that Peter had the potential of running the whole company. Dad and uncles, you should all step down.

Everybody should report to Peter, including family members. He should become the sole CEO.

So then some emotional intelligence. He’s to there.

Five minutes later, I’m on a plane to Paris learning leadership development at INSEAD because I was like either like, you’d better get your act together here, you 35 year round.

I was the youngest CEO of a top 50 bank by 20 years. Wow.

Now another day when we have more time. That was also five minutes before the financial crisis start. Oh, God.

So when you want to learn about emotional intelligence, 2008, this was 2007.

I said the rumbiak is really happening in 2000, the banks. So most of my years as the president and CEO unfortunately were fire-fighting and all the things you saw on the news too big to fail. And with the head of the FDIC, the top senators and congressmen for TARP, the head of the investment bank. I was in those rooms with those people. It was a crazy time.

Why do you think that’s for another day? Because that that’s a whole different. That’s a that’s a movie.

So you were the first CEO of a company. Because presumably you said the three brothers split.

You know what? One of my the oldest uncles had the title, Sly’s Bobby. Yeah. Why? Why is Bobby okay? Yeah. So I w- I think there’s eigth CEO since like 1889 and who runs the company now.

Unfortunately, the company was unable to stay private with our family in the crisis. So we were able to keep it. We still have the holding company called the former bank holding company that’s within our families. After a lot of restructuring, that worked out better than expected, but it was acquired by New York Community Bank during the crisis.

So unfortunately, easy come, easy go. A couple billion dollars a year, a couple of billion dollars or whatever. Oh, dear.

Okay. So then and then you must’ve. It wasn’t preordained. Then you went from that to being a VEAZEY now.

So what I did is then I moved to California.

At that time I was 40. I wasn’t married. I didn’t have a family. Contrary to what you might hear, Cleveland is not the singles dating Mecca of the United States of America. Lot of publications and movies they portray it is not the case.

So I said let me check out. California. I’m never bad. I literally bought a one way ticket for three months at a furnished apartment and I said, I’ll figure out my next move. Do I go to work for a big investment banking firm or a hedge fund or get back into banking?

And after about three weeks here with sunshine, I literally ended on Ocean Avenue Sacramone West and I’d stop in three miles Short.

And I literally have been there now for 10 years, actually, 10 years. A week ago. And it’s been amazing. 

So I was engaged with that and I enjoyed my life because I was working seven days a week for years and years and years, especially during the crisis travelled the world, got my yoga certification, went to improv comedy school and I was living it up in L.A. I have seen Peter do a headstand of some sort.

It was it had sand hands, headstand. I think I saw it, too, on TV.

Yeah, well, yeah. Actually, that was a one legged crow.

Yeah, that’s I was gonna say actually it was more of a one hit crowd and then he’s and then you stick your neck out for it seems like a bend knee.

And then it was it was it was a regular crow and then also an extended one. Yeah. But now in all seriousness and then about five years into here I needed to do more.

I mean I had a company with a lot of people. I was involved with my family. A lot of the bank cleanup was behind us. And I literally made my first investment.

And when I found out in short order was these people was actually seattle-based company just from a family referral.

They just were asking me all these questions about the company and governance, all the organizational behavior related things. And then I did a second. I did a third. I did a fifth. I did a tenth.

And after I got about 15 or 20, I think my name started to get out in the city. Not that difficult.

When you’re writing checks going if you’re writing checks, they find you and you become popular even if you’re not that popular. And I needed at that point, I wanted to formalize my investing efforts and turn it into a V.C. firm.

That’s when I brought Olina board. And now we’re about almost 50 companies in the portfolio.

And that was about five years ago. The first investment was coming up to about five years ago. But the guts of what has happened in the last call, it’s. Three, three and a half years. From your banking becoming a then do you shy away from do you lean into anything fintech like do you have opinions on what we what we should be looking at?

One of the big trends you’re looking at.

It’s it’s funny because Alain and I used to always joke about this. I get in my own way with all the fintech deals because I’m dangerous, because I just know it better than some influencing deal or some CPG deal or some, you know, enterprise software deal.

And I’m usually too picking at Passin or a lot of really good fintech deals because I was just a knucklehead.

So I’m trying this year to be fintech focused and let the, you know, off a little bit here and not be as tight on it.

But I do love fintech. I love real estate. I think health care. LYCETT At the end of the day, it’s still the industries that are the multi-trillion dollar industries that still have a lot of room for inefficiencies and disruption. That’s right. 

So so are there any kinds of investments that you won’t do at your stage? Are there things that you stay away from?

 So I would really say we’re industry agnostic now. What we have done for the millions of people that are listening to this podcast across the globe and are interested in people.

Jay, in all seriousness, appeal g.’s Web site, we have a submission form and anybody is welcome to submit their idea for funding. But we do it a little bit different as you refer to. I’m on a TV show called Entrepreneur Elevator Pitch, which is sort of like a shark tank. So what we have done, and I actually think it’s worked out pretty well, is in order for us to talk to a founder regardless of what their topic is without a referral. They have to also make a 60 second video to PSG ventures to ultimately be considered for even investment.

So we’ll get the normal things, we’ll get the pitch dark, we’ll get what the valuation is, how they hear about us. They’ll fill out the form, but then they have to make a 660 second video. We give them instructions how to do that and YouTube. And that’s how we make the determination, because once again, it goes back to connection. I got to be a man of my word.

Do you end up watching like a couple video? 100 percent of them.

And if somebody took the time to do a video, we’ll get a response from us 100 percent of the time. It does it unless it’s just ridiculous or something. Can also feed into that.

Can I also get on TV this way and get on your show?

No. This is this is like you’re like the biggest entrepreneur entrepreneur. Elevator pitch, right? Correct. Number one, digital business show. Number one, digital business show. Yeah. So it’s big. So you do you have any ability to like get them on the show? Yes, I do.

I’m an executive producer of the show. So Entrepreneurs website has a submission form right now. We’re gonna be filming Season 6 coming up in the spring so they can go to entrepreneur dot com. Elevator pitch. And there’s a whole submission form there for the show.

Put to put in perspective, we have with elevator pitch alone last season, which was twelve episodes, had 40 million views. So, I mean, it really reaches.

So we have a lot of people that just see us almost as many as the podcast. Almost as many as your pocket.

So together, yeah, we could probably have almost 100 million people listings as if we combine forces or like 40 million.

I’m going to go back to being serious for one second about fintech. Yeah. What are the trends right now in fintech?

I think some of the big trends are still the enterprise SAS software behind the scenes, efficiency improvement stuff on almost all aspects of a bank’s operations. They’re still very inefficient. There’s a lot of things that you see with the sexiness of the Robin Hoods and the chimes that front the consumer gap.

But most of those are not actually banks.

They’re just acquiring customers and they’re doing things. And there’s a bank in the real small print underneath the scene. It’s being able to enable these banks to do what those other companies can do.

That’s why you saw Visa Buy planned for 5 billion dollars. I mean, what’s going to happen is the big boys are not going to stay in Capitán forever and it’s just going to be a matter of time that they’re it’s all going to sort of converge. So then if that’s the case, I’d rather be behind the scenes where thousands of banks could leverage software. And that’s where I have a lot of experience running the operations of the company to know what types of technologies can make them more automated, inefficient.

So it China is not a bank. Chime they call it a Challenger bank. But if you were to actually look at it, might I want to bet my life on it that chime itself is not an FDIC insured institution.

Remind me again what a challenge Challenger Bank is. It’s sort of like a sort of bank, right? It does the banking functions, but at the end of the day, think about how much these credit card companies that are out doing co-branded credit cards, but they have these third party companies that are really the credit card company that’s part of Visa or MasterCard. So in a lot of these cases, you have to really understand, are they just a middleman type entity? But the real bank is buying the scene. But that bank doesn’t have the capability to do stuff.

So that’s why these companies are able to be very successful.

So they provide the charter, they provide the actual charter. That to me is the bank. That’s the FDIC. It’s the FDIC insured account.

And but you think there’s a big opportunity to be selling into the actual FDIC?

I believe for the thousands and thousands and thousands of banks and credit unions and through there is so much opportunity there. Same thing for healthcare with the hospitals. These are the things that move very slow. Change doesn’t happen at warp speed. But if you can provide a solution to them, that ultimately can be transformative. Those are sticky and they’re worth a lot of money.

Okay. So when you’re evaluating whether it’s fintech companies or otherwise, do you have certain questions? You always ask anything unique about your diligence?

I have a wild card and the wild card is the Peter personal conviction level.

And if I don’t have personal conviction, we just talked about it.

You know, cannabis or it just doesn’t excite me. I’m just not going to do it even if it’s a great opportunity. Have enough companies in the portfolio. So that’s how the decision made. So that’s why it’s intangible. Somebody can’t prep to see if it’s going to give me conviction or not.

Do you have an example of it? There was once or one company, two co-founders. I have to this day. Never been in a situation where how they communicated and conveyed things to me about what they’re putting it. It was almost like infectious, contagious. It was like the taking crack-cocaine.

Like I needed to hear more. Just talked. It was incredible.

OK. And the idea was just space age craziness. Not like literally space, but I was just like monetization will worry about 10 years from now.

It didn’t check any of the boxes.

But I’m like, if there’s anybody that’s going to be able to make this thing happen and figure it out, it’s these two.

Got it. And where do you want PDG ventures to go? But do you have visions that it’ll be something different than it is now?

Will you be writing bigger checks? We have a bigger team with you.

You know, the answer is.

It’s got to be one or the other, because if you’re in the middle ground where it’s a couple more people, then I think he gets lost in the shuffle. And I love what I’m doing. You know, the beautiful thing here is I get to keep 100 percent of the carry.

So from that standpoint, a lot of what you just ask will depend on the success of this first batch. If the first batch performs really well and there’s some very promising liquidity events, because reality is everybody asks you, how’s the portfolio doing up since all was zero until there’s a liquidity event.

I don’t the market up for anybody.

REPORTER So from that standpoint, till it hits my bank account, I have like the most expensive job, I think in the United States because it just outflowing of money, you know, millions and millions of dollars with basically nothing coming back in because there’s no management fee either.

So to me, a lot of that’s going to depend upon how this initial batch does.

Well, I hope you keep doing just what you’re doing. 

Anything else to add? No. Okay. No.

Are we could have a dance off. 

Thanks so much for coming. Coming on our show today. It was my pleasure.

It was really fun.