David Waxman — TenOneTen

Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2021

The one, the only, David Waxman!! 

David was the founder of three venture backed companies before he and Gil Elbaz started TenOneTen. David shares lessons learned from an IPO, a litigious board member and a couple decades in startups. 

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Today I’m interviewing the one, the only David Waxman.  David and I are partners at TenOneTen, where we write million dollar checks into seed stage companies.  David has been the founder of three companies.  He raised venture for all three, had one IPO, one acquisition, one crash and burn. And of course he is one of the founders of TenOneTen. There’s so much to get into. David, thank you for putting up with all this podcasting and coming on the show today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Well, you know, I like to start with the basics, so maybe you could, start me off by telling me how many pets do you have in your house right now?

That’s a hard question. I can, let me count them off. It’s two dogs, three cats, a leopard gecko, a snake, six chickens, two Guinea, pigs. I think that’s it.

That was good.

That’s excluding my worm bed. Cause I can’t count all of them.

Yeah. Oh, no, you’re not supposed to .  so, okay, so the branding of TenOneTen, um I think a bit we’ve we lean into this nice and nerdy brand. so tell me, how do you feel about that branding?

I feel like it’s well, it’s true. I think, I like to think I’m nice and I’m definitely nerdy  and I think we’re all that, you know we’ve all started companies, but we’ve all also had these technical educations and we  have hung out with other nerdy people and we, We can refer to star Trek episodes and all those things that nurture, supposed to be able to do

Okay, so you start at TenOneTen with Gil Elbaz. who’s nerdier.

Different. I think I’m more pop culture, nerdy. I think he’s more OG legit nerdy.

What does that mean? Like more Caltech nerd?

He’s more Caltech . you know, he can write SQL. I can’t write SQL

You could, it’s not that hard.

No, it’s not that hard, but but Gil used to do it for a living

Okay. Fair enough. , I won’t ask. Who’s nicer. You’re both very nice.

Quite different.

Oh, I agree.  How would you characterize the difference between you and Gill?

Oh, we’re so we’re, we, it’s weird because we have a lot of similarities of background and of taste and then just some parts where we’re really dissimilar. I, I would, I mean, I don’t know how to say it. Otherwise I’m much more emotional than he is, or at least on the surface, like. He doesn’t show a lot of emotion.

I’m not sure if you’ve noticed

He computes things.

He computes things more than I do, but, and actually, yeah, at some level we’re nothing alike because I’m more gut driven and he has gut driven, but his gut is actually a computer.

Okay. I’m going to try to be serious. Do you know what the average amount being raised into a round that we’re investing into and what the average valuation is?

I should know that. at least as well as I do, I think it’s, I think the rounds are like two, two and a half million. Range. We certainly have some threes and fours, and we also have some 500 to a million. We’re more flexible as a firm anywhere early

I wasn’t sure I was going to get the two on seven sounds good. Two or three now.

Don’t give people are our numbers.

Oh, why not?

I don’t know, cause maybe they’ll use them against us when we’re trying to get two out of five.

If they deserve it, Okay. So that’s some of the basics of 10, one 10, obviously we work together. So I asked you a lot of my questions, but  give me some of the basics of you. I said you’ve started three companies raise venture for all of them. Maybe start with Firefly.

Yeah, so I was I was at the MIT media lab. I was in my second year and I met a kid from Harvard business school the way you do.  And we met on an airplane and we literally just decided to start a company.  it wasn’t one of those. I’ve had a passion project for my entire life  that I expect from other people. But for me, it was just, I met this guy and the two of us really liked each other. We decided to start a company and we basically ate pizza and S and brainstorm brainstormed. both of us cut class for the next semester.

And and came up with this idea to recommend music based on this idea of collaborative filtering. So people like you also like this other stuff.  and I known about that technology because some other folks at the media lab were actually studying it and implementing it. And I quite naively walked into the office and said, Hey can you give us all your materials because we want to make a company. And they said we’re going to make a company. 

And so we joined forces and uh, had five founders in that company, Firefly. And we ended up doing a very popular music service. We also got into the questions of online privacy because we were collecting, personal information and preference information.

And ultimately Microsoft bought our company because they thought. That our product, that passport, which was a product to keep personal information in the data while it was really interesting. And they bought that and it became the Microsoft passport.

Okay. And now I’m going to ask one question about this. there are so many of these companies that we see nowadays that are monetize your own data exhausts sort of thing, did Firefly color, how you look at all those.

Well I see a lot of them because maybe because of the Firefly experience and the biggest issue in that space is distribution.

Like how do you get everybody to use your wallet and not some other wallet? And for us that meant selling to Microsoft because Microsoft had 200 million desktop computers out there and we could put them on every single OSTP.  so whenever I meet a company that’s in this space, I’m always, that’s the first, second and third questions.

How are you going to get this thing out there?

What about what goes into the wallet?

Well, I think there’s differing levels of PII that could go into a wallet. the way I envision a wallet that’s done well is that you have. All the PII that you need for whatever the use case is, and that you authorize that use case for that.

provider or that app for as long as they needed to provide the service back to you, that you’re asking for.

It’s kind of conflating the notion of a wallet with the sort of monetize your data exhaust

Yeah. I, I’m not a big believer in that. I just think that, The money is not, I mean, in aggregate it’s a ton of money, right? For a company like Facebook or Google to, you know, to take the aggregate of everybody’s data and then monetize it. I think for any one person it’s not a tremendous amount of money. And so it has to be really, really easy. And I think it makes you think about it, which you might not. You might not want to do it. If you start to think too hard about like, is this, do I really want to share this for nine bucks a year or whatever, you know, some smaller amount or even nine bucks a month is that really make sense?

Right, right. Well, Uh, let’s get back to you. The, the guy on the airplane who you started this company with was Nick founder of alpha Edison 

Yep.

Um, and then you guys decide to do another one.

And another one after that. Yeah. . It was Nick and a guy named max Metrol, who was our original CTO. And  the three of us decided to start another company.  it was called people PC. And the idea was to get people easy access to the internet in a time when it was a pain in the ass to get on the internet.

So getting an, a dial-up service and getting a computer and getting,  figuring out which one, we put it all into a bundle that people paid for on a monthly fee.

And , do people know it because you guys did a lot of consumer advertising

Yeah. And ended up getting a lot of consumer advertising behind it. So we were very lucky. We had actually a hit commercial, one that, that just everybody took to this, to the actor who did it  and then in 2003, when EarthLink bought our company, you know they ran it as a dial-up service.

And they poured a lot of acquisition dollars into it. And just so over the course of maybe 10 years, people saw a ton of people, PC ads, particularly on television.

and w did you guys, you IPO on the NASDAQ

Yeah.

anything else? Just about the mechanics of an IPO? Like my understanding is you issue new shares, kind of like a capital raise.

it’s exactly a capital raise. That’s that’s what it is. I mean, you convert all the  preferred to common, so you only have one class of stock typically, and then you just issue more common shares and sell them. Um, and there’s a couple of details in there, but that’s, that’s the basics of it. And the thing I remember most from our IPO.

Was the writing of the , which was a really interesting exercise that we didn’t have when we started, we had neither a CFO or a general counsel, which shows how young we were.

And I was sort of the guy because, uh, Nick, my partner was, was not the kind of person could sit in a room with a bunch of lawyers at right. Something that that’s not his thing, but, but, so I ended up being the guy to draft the S one. So I was in this room with like 15 lawyers from all different, you know, from the banks and from us and from various places.

And it was almost. Sometimes I describe it as Talmudic. Like we were kind of looking at the language and having long discussions, over words, like, can we really say it’s revolutionary while there wasn’t actual revolution here and does a revolution need guns? You know, that kind of thing.

And you’re writing this thing. And the whole process was like that, uh, which, which is really interesting for a short amount of time and then really, really boring after you do it for awhile.

Okay. Uh, that’s a great story. One. It blows me away that you didn’t have a CFO or a general counsel and that you were essentially that person

those people. I mean, we did get them on in that process,

yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. And a room with 15 lawyers.

And then spot runner.

Yeah. That’s what moved me down here to LA.

And spot runner was a rocket ship up and very hot until it stopped being hot and ended poorly yet we’re always meeting great spot runner, alumns and investing into their companies.

Yeah. spot runner was, it was unsuccessful as a commercial endeavor and uncut successful for investors. That doesn’t mean that we didn’t do a lot of things well, and get, have a lot of little successes.  it just means that the outcome wasn’t what we wanted it to be. So we built a fantastic team at a time that in LA to build a fantastic  technical team was really hard.

back then in the sort of mid two thousands, it was nearly impossible to get somebody to relocate from the Bay area. To LA

So how did you do it and what do you recommend to companies trying to build great tech teams now in LA?

Well it’s much, much better now y’all have it easy, no, I mean, we did a really good job , with PR and I think that helped a lot and 

One of the things I did was I already taught Gatlin is by far the best recruiter in LA I’ve ever worked with. And he, you know, he got some great people and as you know,

all engineering teams in particular, the quality of our people drew high quality people.  And those people were appealing to, to other great people.

And then we hired Todd Gatlin because he’s a great person and we only hire great people. So now he’s at ten one 10.

Exactly.

Gil also used him. So all of us have used him.

, so I, I found this question from Gill amusing because I asked Gill , and Eric, what questions to ask you on the podcast and Gill who started 10, one 10 with you?

What? Like seven, eight years ago?

seven. Yeah, almost eight.

He asked, what are your tips for staying friends with someone who you’ve started multiple businesses with.

uh, Nick and I I think he’s talking about Nick  cause I’ve only really started one thing with guilt. Nick and I just had, tremendous amount of respect for each other and we were very different. and we’re very complimentary in our skills. And I think we both really appreciated that the other guy had super powers.

that we’re different than their own

well, what’s your super power? What are his super powers?

Uh, Nick’s a great fundraiser and sales person and strategic thinker and, and, um, what am I super powers? I can get teams to do stuff

Okay. So maintaining respect for someone and the unique skills and superpowers they bring, but sometimes man, as you get to know people and see their flaws, that just it’s harder.

Well, I think that’s your issue. You’ve said that before that you respect people sometimes less after you get to know them. And I don’t know if that’s fully commonly true.

Okay. Hopefully not,  Um, with those three companies, before we move into 10, one 10 did you have VCs that were helpful?

Yeah, we did. We had a lot of great VCs. some of them have become really well known. So Brad Feld was on the board of people PC and our earliest investor there. back when he was with SoftBank , Spot runner, had Danny Rimer from index ventures who was excellent. Bob Pittman, who is an independent board member and small investor was excellent.  We’ve been fortunate. We’ve had one bad investor and that was part of spot runner’s demise. but, and so I know I’ve been bruised. I know what having a bat an investor could do but for the most part, we’ve had quite good investors.

you may not want to discuss it, but you said you had all these great board members except for one who really derailed things with spot runner

yeah. It wasn’t even a board member. It was important observer.

Hmm.

uh, yeah, we had a bad investor I think I can say their name. It’s public record that they sued us. it’s was WPP. And, the CEO at the time, Martin Sorrell was, uh, Litigious dude. And the person who I think still works there, who worked for him in Corp dev slash vesting.

This guy, Lance Morrow was a, I don’t know if I could say this out of pocket as a total Dick and you know, like when he thought things were going well, he used to go on TV and brag. This is Martin Sorrell about, you know, he basically exaggerated how much of our company he owned and like, take credit for things that he couldn’t, shouldn’t be taking credit for.

Then on the opposite side, when things weren’t going well, he said that it was all about that. We were somehow focused entirely on, deceiving him somehow. And when he was really never that big of a shareholder in the first place, and we certainly, Weren’t trying to deceive anybody.

ass. And then when they, they actually did Sue us, like things were already Rocky. It was 2008, 2009. We had some issues in the company and for them to then Sue us, it was basically a big kick in the gut while we were down.

talk about a board member becoming part of the problem. Like they, we suddenly had a lawsuit against the company and, and against us as board members and us as individuals. So it was hugely destructive.

wow.  There was something about the business model that wasn’t working. It was legitimate company, not working stuff. And then your investor sort of caked you while you were down.

Yeah, exactly. I think it was actually three steps. We had some issues with the business  And then we had a macro issue, which was the meltdown in 2008, which totally eviscerated the advertising market. And then while we were kind of dealing with.

The second compounding of the first and the investor came and kicked us out. And it just, that was the nail.

Hmm. Sucks.

Totally a sec.

Yeah. And that is startup life for you folks.

Yeah. And it also taught me like,  not everybody’s rational all the time. It didn’t make any sense.

And yet that action in it, and pretty much everything, every subsequent action that followed with them was value destroying, and it didn’t make any sense.

Yeah.

You are always telling founders to vet their VCs.

But now hearing this story, I understand what you’re saying. So for WPP, I could have found out with very, very little real diligence that they were super litigious. They had a web page on their site about the people that they’d sued and basically public apologies. We never gave a public apology, by the way, we didn’t have anything to apologize for, but, this was like part of their business practice

Okay. So after that experience, you decided you wanted to be a VC, or how did that come about for you. it’s something that I had thought of for years, , but it sort of happened by accident  , After spot runner. I was pretty sure I didn’t want to start another full on venture back company. And I started helping people and  making some angel investments and just being an advisor.

and that got me deeper in with other companies and I just kept wanting to do it. And then I met Gil and we started investing together and  the more I did it, the more, I didn’t want it to be a hobby. The more I wanted it to be my profession. And, uh  that’s what led us to today.

But so Gil had another job. So a lot of it fell on you like a lot of the actual, fund administration  or who did you go to? What resources did you have?

The LA ecosystem is, is a friendly one and  and a very collaborative one. And, back when I was starting out here and 2013 when we started 10, one 10, there were some,  locals who are still around, like Jim Andelman from bonfire and TX from what was then Carlin.

And now he is with FECA ventures and Peter Lee for Baroda and  just then the guys across cat, there was a whole crowd of. The season, but we were pretty small. It was so small that we often had lunch  to just talk shop and everybody made themselves really available to my questions.

And, I had met VCs of course, throughout my career, and pretty much everybody was stepped up and was willing to help and answer questions.

Great.  , what about mistakes that you made  in your investing or in the early days of 10, one 10 that you wouldn’t make again? let me go, let me, because I know you pretty well.

you don’t like solo founders. more so than anyone else in our team, you have a bit of a reaction there. Did that come from having bad solo founder experience or,

Yeah. first of all, I just think it’s really, it’s an incredibly hard thing to do with the team. And I know in my own experience how important the relationship with another person was and how, they could be up when I was down and I could be up when they were down  so it’s part of me is just incredulous that people can do it without that. and then we did have some investments that didn’t work out so well with solo founders and and actually there’s some data on it. It’s one of those few things that has data.

there was a, the startup genome did a little bit of data and it was about I think their conclusions were, and I’m going to Maul this, but that founders didn’t  pivot as quickly when they were so low. And that kind of makes sense. You don’t have that other person to push you off the bad idea.

and time to exit was longer. obviously there are counter examples, right? they’re spectacular counterexamples, but if you look at most of the iconic companies, even those companies that we think of. With a very iconic founder like Steve jobs or bill Gates, they had co-founders Yep. we can test this more when we come up with a solo founder who we really want to invest in.  how about maybe that’s a less fun question then. Just what’s an example of a company that you really have enjoyed nerding out on

So many just one of many that I’ve really enjoyed is second spectrum. there are local really hardcore tech company here in LA, and I like that.  I met them early on when they were professors at USC and they were studying basketball.

They were studying how you could turn the movements of players and the ball into a semantic understanding of the game of basketball. So not just this players here or this player is there, but this is a guy doing a slam dunk or a pick and roll. And the team is really fun. , the area that they’re in is really fun because I like sports and they’ve been doing really hardcore tech

Yeah, go go second spectrum. Uh, and not just doing it for basketball, but moving into taking that computer vision and semantic understanding and taking it to soccer now as well. Um, so you and I both know that all the computer vision companies that come into our pipeline get you very excited.

What is it about computer vision that gets you so excited?

I just think it’s one of those areas of AI. That’s living up to its hype, right? And there’s a lot of AI. That’s not,  he has a big umbrella and I’m a useless term, but there, there are a lot of promises about what AI can do. And a lot of them fall short.  computer vision is really.

Incredible. you can drive a freaking car down the street without human intervention in part because the car can see and you can,  you can find  faces out of a billion pictures these capabilities are really incredible and,  there are lots of applications for these capabilities.

Is it a lot of times a fairly off the shelf camera that can do it. And then it’s really a software challenge.

Well, the other thing about computer vision is moving really fast. what was really expensive yesterday is cheaper today and will be cheaper tomorrow. if you look at second spectrum  the setups they have for the NBA and the English premier league, they’re pretty expensive now, but the company can easily see how both the compute to do the work.

And the camera systems are going to get cheaper over time to the point where any game can be tracked.

, so your vision is one that I know I always send to you. Health tech is another one where I feel like I can get you to take meetings. , what do you see going on right now in health care? And how are we going to get out of this mess? That is sort of our healthcare system in this country.

I have mixed feelings about health tech, because it’s really big and it’s really important and it’s really hard.  and it’s, , it’s a slow sales cycle, particularly if you’re selling to hospitals. And for good reason, like hospitals aren’t necessarily great places  to move fast and break things.

But I think there, there are a couple trends that are macro trends that , that are unstoppable and really important. One is value-based care where people are no longer paying for the procedure, but paying for health.  actually there are three there’s consumer facing health care where consumers are really taking control of

of their own health and looking at data and doing, things that normally,  people use clinics to do like,  monitor their blood glucose.  and then Tele-health which has gotten a huge push , from COVID and, change legislations , which,  allowed doctors now to, operate across state lines, which is enormous.

so there’s a lot changing in healthcare and a lot of reasons to change it. And,  it’s a very exciting place.

So is that is that one of the main things that’s going on in telehealth right now, which is providers can operate across state lines?

it it, it creates venture scale possibilities.  If you can have a company that can do dermatology for the entire United States or prescriptions for the entire United States  or even broader than that but just the U S market, as opposed to having to do a state-by-state thing that really helps a lot.

And also just people’s comfort with seeing a doctor over a video call  is something that was coming. And I think. You know we’ve all been forced to do things that we didn’t really want to do during COVID. And, you know we’re realizing in a lot of cases that it’s not so bad.

you know, I throw it health tensor, which is a company that’s really bringing AI machine learning into the clinic and helping doctors make the right decisions.

And  and also just make their process of dealing with the medical record, much, much more efficient.

Health tensor is a great example of just automated decision support for doctors in the future. We’re going to look back on doctors, memorizing books and books of medical data, and think it’s like my mom who memorized everyone’s phone number because phones couldn’t store phone numbers.

And we just realized there is a better way of doing things

Yeah.  and I think it’s important to also say like there’s, there will always be room for doctors and  always be a very critical role for doctors to be the interface between,  any systems and. The patient, we both have family members who are doctors.

They can look at a person and say, ah, yeah, you probably need to get that checked. And that’s just, uh I think that intuition level ability  to see if someone’s,  needs help or not is not going anywhere.

Okay. So you just said it’s the move to value based care where payers pay for patient health rather than procedures done consumer control of their own health and telehealth.

Well, there’s just, there’s so much going on. I mean, we don’t do biotech. and sometimes I’m a little sad that we don’t do biotech because I think this period of history will be remembered as the combination of  compute and bio, and,  you know, just look at the vaccine efforts that have just happened and how fast they were able to do it.

Um, because they were able to model things. you know I don’t, we don’t do it because I feel it’s just too far out of my technical depth.  but it’s neat.

Yeah. It’s tempting. .

It would require a whole lot of study

Yeah. Or a different team

or a different team. 

Yeah, 

but where is 10, one 10 going. Do you think we’re aligned on that? hopefully so, but , um, maybe you can characterize your vision for where you want to be. with ten one 10.

I think we should spend the next several years really focused down on trying to get da Wallach to join our team.

I was hoping you were going to say building a podcast empire, but da walk would be fantastic.

I,  I would like to add, I think we will add capabilities to the team that we don’t have now. I think that’s part of what it’s going to mean and something that you say all the time I think is, has really become my guide for how we think about ten one 10, which is,   there’s this market of founders building great things, and we want to provide what they need right now. Like nice techie investors who will lead around in LA. that’s a hole in the market and founders really need that and we can give it to them. I think in the future, those needs might be different and, we’ll have different capabilities and they might have different needs and hopefully.

10, one 10 will be an enduring institution here at LA that will help founders make stuff real.

Oh, I like that. Help founders make stuff real. That’s great. Um, you know, a lot of funds have aspirations to grow their AUM and we get asked why aren’t you raising more money? But I would say that you and Gill and I all really liked the early stages.

I do like the early stages and I, think we’ll always do early stage.

Um, okay. So I saved up a couple of my specific questions because, you know, usually when we have one-on-ones I just ask you all my questions. So I was like, Oh, I’ll just do the same on the podcast. what do you have any preference on notes versus safes?

uh, I think the safes are a little bit cleaner, um, just because there’s less in there. And from the founder’s perspective, they don’t have this extra added dimension of debt, which, you know, it has its own rules, a safe kind of ignores all that.

Yeah.  uh, I know, I know that you do not like the uncapped convertible note. and I understand why, but, um, do you like the uncapped note at all, if  you were a founder, you just dislike it as a VC.

yeah, I dislike it as a VC. I’m sure. It’s, it’s, it’s very, it’s sweet financing terms for a founder, but I think it, it creates this misalignment, right? Where. if you’ve got an uncapped note,  you’re basically funding the company to get further, which will make the valuation go up, which is bad for the return on that uncap note, in some sense, if you don’t have any other investment.

Um, and so it fundamentally kind of misaligned with the founder. You should be both trying to get the next best valuation.

And so you’re saying then if it’s uncapped, I, the VC sort of prefer that the next valuation is not higher.

Assuming I have no other investment in the company. Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is why, you know, the case recently where we’ve done one it’s because we’re already shareholders in the company and,

makes sense Um what about buying secondary Like I did this podcast with Zach white and a huge part of their strategy is or two of the examples he highlighted are buying secondary  what do you think about it as a sort of later stage fund strategy

I mean I think it’s I think it’s fine especially if you’re already a preferred holder so you’re getting the information and you have other preferred rights for us we’ve used it I mean we bought secondary and a company when it was an ability for us to buy up I mean as you know we’d like to buy up where we see things going well  So it created an opportunity to buy up but it also can allow you to bring other investors into an oversubscribed round You know by creating a little bit more room on secondary So this there’s you know I think there’s lots of places where we would use it

got it So we if we have enough of the preferred from our earlier investment then we have sort of major investors status or something like that

Well the common is still  it doesn’t have the liquidation preference. It doesn’t, necessarily, Contribute to your pro rata rights. But, but if, you know, if you already have information rights, then you don’t need to get them again. If that’s what you care about.

I’m going to edit out the name later, but do you remember term sheet? Do you remember what it was that you didn’t like when you saw it?

I don’t remember for that particular one, but basically I don’t like to see anything that’s non-standard I don’t like to see a super pro-rata super providers can be really messy. I don’t like to see terms different in any way from the lead investor to any of the other investors in that same round.

I think that’s. That’s just janky.

You mean not just like major investors status or whatever, but.

right beyond major investor status, you know,  there’s a company that we didn’t invest in, in part out of principle. And maybe that will turn out to be a bad choice, but , , basically the lead investor was getting an effective, lower price than everybody else in the round, because I suppose it helped that they were going to do  Which to me is part of what you signed up for as a VC.

So you shouldn’t get paid extra for that.

how did they structure that?

they structured it as a simultaneous accelerator deal where they were getting some common shares  for the, for this work slash program that they were doing. But it wasn’t really a work program. It sounded like the kind of help that we would do for free.

Yeah.  Dennis. Sure. You want to put that in.

I, whatever. It’s interesting to me, anything else for our founders sort of advice you’ve been giving recently  no, I think that , the advice is super variable based on the founders. Like some founders go a little bit too deliberately and you want to push them to go faster, some go, a little bit crazy cakes and you want to hold them in.

did he say some fan? Who’s got a little crazy cakes.

I think I did. I think they did. Yeah.

Good. okay then let me circle back to you and talk more about you. are you competitive?

Yeah. I think you have to be like, no one is in this business is not competitive and no one starts companies. Who’s not a little bit competitive.

Yeah, but I’m always, I always try to remind myself what I want to be competing on.

I’m competitive with myself. Above all that’s what I’m always trying to beat is my standard and what I want, what I think I ought to be doing.  and that’s more set by me than external observations. Like I don’t need to clever so-and-so I need to collaborate my goal.

Yeah. What are your goals right now? like impact you want to have on the world with ten one 10 is your platform.

I want to invest in a bunch of companies that are incredibly successful and iconic names that, people look back on and say, wow, no, that’s part of the fabric of society.

Yeah. And you met them when they were two people and,  took a bet on them.

Yeah. And it’s so great that kind of retrospective look is so fun when you have started with a company and it’s, you remember when they were just maybe a couple founders coming to visit you and then you’re visiting them and you’re signing into a desk and the person doesn’t know you and 

it’s great to see that, that growth

That’s like it would meet, go to second spectrum and squat in their corner office and ask if we can drink some of their coffee.

Yeah, do you

an office.

I know I have no idea. I love my laundry room.  okay.

Final question, hiking trail. . Like give me one place. I could just show up with my family Saturday and go hiking with them.

you center, you can go up the tram halfway.

really,

Yeah. You go up the

a tram there

is a tram from Palm Springs to the top of sin. You could totally get to snow on the top of sending incentive from Palm Springs and then you can hike to the peak. I wouldn’t do it with kids, but you could totally. Like goof around in the snow up there.

It’s fun.

Oh, that sounds like a good activity. maybe it’s not a perfect COVID activity to hang out in a tramp, but,

Yeah. Maybe not

cool. Okay, great.

anything else you think we should make sure to cover?  Um  do you think you’re more like Gil or Eytan?

I don’t know if I’m more like you probably than either of those.

they’re fairly different. I feel, I thought you might find kinship in one direction or another.

Yeah, no, that’s those elbows they’re in a class by themselves.

Yeah. Um  I, I appreciate you coming on the podcast today, but really, I appreciate that you’re a great entrepreneur enabler and I came to you and said something like, , I really want to start this podcast. And you’re like, okay. And then I was like, , I really want to stay this spot here.

And you’re like, okay. I just went and bought you some microphones, essentially. you are an entrepreneur enablers. that’s what I like to be. It’s

know. I know.  thank you for coming on this podcast. and thanks for being a great partner.

Okay. Thank you, Minneola.